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Post by Saint on Jan 7, 2022 23:19:22 GMT -6
For those that care, Ortiz is currently leading all candidates at around 81%. Bonds is actually second and fairly close to Ortiz last I looked.
That being said, less than half the votes are in so nobody is trending very well. It could be another shutout.
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 8, 2022 3:55:39 GMT -6
After they broke the seal with Edgar Martinez, you knew Ortiz was getting in easily.
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2022 12:20:52 GMT -6
While I understand why (East Coast Bias), it seems crazy to me that Edgar had to wait a decade, while Ortiz is on his way to being a 1st balloter....
Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot.
It's getting a little ridiculous.
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 11, 2022 13:26:58 GMT -6
While I understand why (East Coast Bias), it seems crazy to me that Edgar had to wait a decade, while Ortiz is on his way to being a 1st balloter.... Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot. It's getting a little ridiculous. Biggio wasn’t my favorite Astro, but the Committee did him wrong. Whether or not you believe Biggio was an exceptional player, not having him first ballot as a 3,000-hit member, even though he didn’t have the stigma of steroids or BALCO attached to him, was a sort of travesty. |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Jan 11, 2022 13:35:08 GMT -6
Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot. 1 - HR total >>>> Hit total 2 - Ortiz is ranked 17th all time in career HRs. Biggio is ranked 25th all time in career hits. 3 - Selection for the HoF has a LOT to do with who else is on the ballot at the time. Craig Biggio had the highest number of votes and the largest support of any candidate in 2013 (the first year he was eligible) but due to the dilution that occurs when other notable players are on the ballot he didn't reach the requisite 75% level. Other notable candidates in 2013:Jack Morris Jeff Bagwell Mike Piazza Tim Raines Lee Smith Curt Schilling Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Edgar Martínez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Fred McGriff Dale Murphy Mark McGwire Don Mattingly Biggio didn't get in on his second ballot (2014) either. Greg Maddux Tom Glavine Frank Thomas (all first ballot candidates) were selected. Boo friggin' hoo. He got in on his third ballot. Get over it. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 11, 2022 14:18:29 GMT -6
Need to be enshrined: Schilling, Clemens, Bonds, Rose.
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2022 15:46:42 GMT -6
Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot. 1 - HR total >>>> Hit total 2 - Ortiz is ranked 17th all time in career HRs. Biggio is ranked 25th all time in career hits. 3 - Selection for the HoF has a LOT to do with who else is on the ballot at the time. Craig Biggio had the highest number of votes and the largest support of any candidate in 2013 (the first year he was eligible) but due to the dilution that occurs when other notable players are on the ballot he didn't reach the requisite 75% level. Other notable candidates in 2013:Jack Morris Jeff Bagwell Mike Piazza Tim Raines Lee Smith Curt Schilling Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Edgar Martínez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Fred McGriff Dale Murphy Mark McGwire Don Mattingly Biggio didn't get in on his second ballot (2014) either. Greg Maddux Tom Glavine Frank Thomas (all first ballot candidates) were selected. Boo friggin' hoo. He got in on his third ballot. Get over it. 1. HR Total >>> Hit Total in your opinion. With the steroid era, plenty of guys hit a shit ton of HRs that they wouldn't have. Power hitters were a dime a dozen. 2. I'm aware of how all-star voting works. 2. An All-Star at multiple positions who actually played some GG-caliber defense during his career >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a fat DH. In MY opinion. (But I like baseball players, not beer league softball players. To each their own!) 3. "Boo friggin' hoo. He got in on his third ballot. Get over it." - What's with the attitude? I'm sorry that I voiced an opinion that you don't like...? |
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2022 15:47:01 GMT -6
Need to be enshrined: Schilling, Clemens, Bonds, Rose. All true. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 11, 2022 15:52:18 GMT -6
While I understand why (East Coast Bias), it seems crazy to me that Edgar had to wait a decade, while Ortiz is on his way to being a 1st balloter.... Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot. It's getting a little ridiculous. Biggio wasn’t my favorite Astro, but the Committee did him wrong. Whether or not you believe Biggio was an exceptional player, not having him first ballot as a 3,000-hit member, even though he didn’t have the stigma of steroids or BALCO attached to him, was a sort of travesty. I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 11, 2022 15:59:51 GMT -6
Biggio wasn’t my favorite Astro, but the Committee did him wrong. Whether or not you believe Biggio was an exceptional player, not having him first ballot as a 3,000-hit member, even though he didn’t have the stigma of steroids or BALCO attached to him, was a sort of travesty. I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... I liked Biggio but just not as much as Berkman or Bagwell. I have no problem if other fans loved him. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 11, 2022 16:01:20 GMT -6
Yes, Ortiz hit the 500 HR milestone, but even Biggio, who had the 3000 hit milestone didn't get in on the 1st ballot. 1 - HR total >>>> Hit total 2 - Ortiz is ranked 17th all time in career HRs. Biggio is ranked 25th all time in career hits. 3 - Selection for the HoF has a LOT to do with who else is on the ballot at the time. Craig Biggio had the highest number of votes and the largest support of any candidate in 2013 (the first year he was eligible) but due to the dilution that occurs when other notable players are on the ballot he didn't reach the requisite 75% level. Other notable candidates in 2013:Jack Morris Jeff Bagwell Mike Piazza Tim Raines Lee Smith Curt Schilling Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Edgar Martínez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Fred McGriff Dale Murphy Mark McGwire Don Mattingly Biggio didn't get in on his second ballot (2014) either. Greg Maddux Tom Glavine Frank Thomas (all first ballot candidates) were selected. Boo friggin' hoo. He got in on his third ballot. Get over it. So, should I be more enraged that Palmeiro isn’t in? I don’t get your reaction. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 11, 2022 18:47:17 GMT -6
Biggio wasn’t my favorite Astro, but the Committee did him wrong. Whether or not you believe Biggio was an exceptional player, not having him first ballot as a 3,000-hit member, even though he didn’t have the stigma of steroids or BALCO attached to him, was a sort of travesty. I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... He was a great player, but I couldn't stand his personality (especially during interviews). Also, I admit that his retirement party in every stadium left a bad taste in my mouth. He didn't even realize how ridiculous it was. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 11, 2022 21:15:45 GMT -6
I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... He was a great player, but I couldn't stand his personality (especially during interviews). Also, I admit that his retirement party in every stadium left a bad taste in my mouth. He didn't even realize how ridiculous it was. I saw an old highlight of him beating out a DP grounder. Man, he was lightning quick in his younger days. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 12, 2022 10:39:52 GMT -6
I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... I liked Biggio but just not as much as Berkman or Bagwell. I have no problem if other fans loved him. Biggio wasn't my favorite, but not many players play 3 completely different positions for extended periods of time like he did, and two of them at an all-star level (one at a HoF level). It's not like he was a SS that got old and moved to 3B, or a LFer who moved to 1B. An All-Star catcher to HoF 2B to full-time CFer in an outfield with a damn hill. Doing that, while reaching 3000+ Hits, 400+ SB, 1800+ Runs, almost 300 HR while keeping a good (albeit not amazing) .363 OBP and 112 OPS+? That should be a sure-fire HoFer to me. And if he'd have had more time in MMP rather than the Astrodome, he easily increases his HR and Runs Totals even further. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 12, 2022 10:41:39 GMT -6
I don't understand why Biggio seems to get the short of the end the stick with a lot of fans. Yeah, he hung around a couple seasons too long to get that 3000, but so did a lot of players hunting milestones. Even if you take out his last couple seasons, he was easily a HOF-caliber player. He and Alomar were the best two 2B of the 90's and very similar players. Alomar reached no big milestones but still made it on his 2nd attempt (quicker than Biggio). And Alomar literally spit on an umpire... He was a great player, but I couldn't stand his personality (especially during interviews). Also, I admit that his retirement party in every stadium left a bad taste in my mouth. He didn't even realize how ridiculous it was. I think part of the retirement party stems from the fact that, as a fanbase, we had nothing else to root for at the time so the organization really pushed the fanfare of it all. I don't know that I put all of that on him. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Jan 12, 2022 10:58:14 GMT -6
He was a great player, but I couldn't stand his personality (especially during interviews). Also, I admit that his retirement party in every stadium left a bad taste in my mouth. He didn't even realize how ridiculous it was. I think part of the retirement party stems from the fact that, as a fanbase, we had nothing else to root for at the time so the organization really pushed the fanfare of it all. I don't know that I put all of that on him. I agree. It was overdone, but it could have been worse, it could have been half-assed. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 12, 2022 13:32:00 GMT -6
I liked Biggio but just not as much as Berkman or Bagwell. I have no problem if other fans loved him. Biggio wasn't my favorite, but not many players play 3 completely different positions for extended periods of time like he did, and two of them at an all-star level (one at a HoF level). It's not like he was a SS that got old and moved to 3B, or a LFer who moved to 1B. An All-Star catcher to HoF 2B to full-time CFer in an outfield with a damn hill. Doing that, while reaching 3000+ Hits, 400+ SB, 1800+ Runs, almost 300 HR while keeping a good (albeit not amazing) .363 OBP and 112 OPS+? That should be a sure-fire HoFer to me. And if he'd have had more time in MMP rather than the Astrodome, he easily increases his HR and Runs Totals even further. Which is why I think that with all those hits and doubles, he should have gotten in sooner. Much like Bagwell with the 500 HR mark, the Astrodome cost Biggio 300 bombs. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Jan 12, 2022 16:26:10 GMT -6
Biggio wasn't my favorite, but not many players play 3 completely different positions for extended periods of time like he did, and two of them at an all-star level (one at a HoF level). It's not like he was a SS that got old and moved to 3B, or a LFer who moved to 1B. An All-Star catcher to HoF 2B to full-time CFer in an outfield with a damn hill. Doing that, while reaching 3000+ Hits, 400+ SB, 1800+ Runs, almost 300 HR while keeping a good (albeit not amazing) .363 OBP and 112 OPS+? That should be a sure-fire HoFer to me. And if he'd have had more time in MMP rather than the Astrodome, he easily increases his HR and Runs Totals even further. Which is why I think that with all those hits and doubles, he should have gotten in sooner. Much like Bagwell with the 500 HR mark, the Astrodome cost Biggio 300 bombs. I've had some good luck in my life seeing Astro games in person... I saw Biggio go five or five in a game, and saw Bagweill hit three home runs |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 13, 2022 9:36:58 GMT -6
Which is why I think that with all those hits and doubles, he should have gotten in sooner. Much like Bagwell with the 500 HR mark, the Astrodome cost Biggio 300 bombs. I've had some good luck in my life seeing Astro games in person... I saw Biggio go five or five in a game, and saw Bagweill hit three home runs I saw Randy Johnson shut out the Pirates with 16 K’s. That was a fun night. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2022 15:35:20 GMT -6
Which is why I think that with all those hits and doubles, he should have gotten in sooner. Much like Bagwell with the 500 HR mark, the Astrodome cost Biggio 300 bombs. I've had some good luck in my life seeing Astro games in person... I saw Biggio go five or five in a game, and saw Bagweill hit three home runs My dad was at the 3000 hit game. I was at the 18 inning ALDS game back in 2005. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 25, 2022 17:26:18 GMT -6
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Post by thomasj13 on Jan 25, 2022 17:51:17 GMT -6
It figures, he was the only one to have a shot. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Jan 25, 2022 18:31:31 GMT -6
More BBWAA clownery. Ortiz, Bond, Clemens all on the Mitchell Report, somehow the least-great of them is in on the first ballot and the two generational players are left out. Meanwhile Schilling down and out because of #MeanTweets I guess. And Jeff Kent and Scott Rolen still can't get any respect.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 25, 2022 18:35:51 GMT -6
More BBWAA clownery. Ortiz, Bond, Clemens all on the Mitchell Report, somehow the least-great of them is in on the first ballot and the two generational players are left out. Meanwhile Schilling down and out because of #MeanTweets I guess. And Jeff Kent and Scott Rolen still can't get any respect. A-Rod was twice the player as Ortiz, too |
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Post by Ashitaka on Jan 25, 2022 20:26:02 GMT -6
More BBWAA clownery. Ortiz, Bond, Clemens all on the Mitchell Report, somehow the least-great of them is in on the first ballot and the two generational players are left out. Meanwhile Schilling down and out because of #MeanTweets I guess. And Jeff Kent and Scott Rolen still can't get any respect. A-Rod was twice the player as Ortiz, too It wouldn't nessicary be my argument, but I can at least see someone making a distinction between Ortiz and A-Rod, who got caught twice, one of which was well after it became banned with penalties. Still dumb that Ortiz's history is just getting swept away like Piazza's did though, meanwhile there no more real evidence against Clemens than there is Ortiz. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 26, 2022 0:04:51 GMT -6
A-Rod was twice the player as Ortiz, too It wouldn't nessicary be my argument, but I can at least see someone making a distinction between Ortiz and A-Rod, who got caught twice, one of which was well after it became banned with penalties. Still dumb that Ortiz's history is just getting swept away like Piazza's did though, meanwhile there no more real evidence against Clemens than there is Ortiz. His point was there is no reason why the voters should revile Rodriguez so much more than Ortiz. Sure, Ortiz could hit, but he didn’t have the ability of A-Rod. Alex also played defense and played it really well for the most part. Bonds and Clemens were generational talents at their respective positions. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 26, 2022 6:56:06 GMT -6
It wouldn't nessicary be my argument, but I can at least see someone making a distinction between Ortiz and A-Rod, who got caught twice, one of which was well after it became banned with penalties. Still dumb that Ortiz's history is just getting swept away like Piazza's did though, meanwhile there no more real evidence against Clemens than there is Ortiz. His point was there is no reason why the voters should revile Rodriguez so much more than Ortiz. Sure, Ortiz could hit, but he didn’t have the ability of A-Rod. Alex also played defense and played it really well for the most part. Bonds and Clemens were generational talents at their respective positions. Exactly. ARod hit 696 HR, .295 avg, .380 OBP, .550 Slg, 3115 hits, 2086 RBI |
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Post by m240 on Jan 26, 2022 8:15:39 GMT -6
More BBWAA clownery. Ortiz, Bond, Clemens all on the Mitchell Report, somehow the least-great of them is in on the first ballot and the two generational players are left out. Meanwhile Schilling down and out because of #MeanTweets I guess. And Jeff Kent and Scott Rolen still can't get any respect. For quite some time steroids were not banned and players got them and hgh from medical personnel who were advising them. What seems to make sense is to look at what players did during that time frame and throw out the mileposts so to speak and just look at how they compared to their contemporaries. I think that is what they are supposed to do anyway but obviously not. The truth of the matter is that everyone liked Ortiz and few people liked Bonds and Clemens and the result is that Ortiz wins the popularity contest, Clemens and Bonds just get to go home and play with their money and other annual awards. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 26, 2022 8:19:13 GMT -6
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Post by Saint on Jan 26, 2022 9:13:30 GMT -6
Ortiz making it as a 1st ballot when it took Edgar Martinez 10 years, shows complete east coast bias and that it's a popularity contest over anything else.
Ortiz is definitely Hall-worthy, imo. But the inconsistency with the voters over the last several years is pathetic.
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