Altuve vs. Biggio

[Saint]

As a follow-up to my ever popular Bregman vs. Bagwell thread...

Each players first 12 seasons. This is an interesting comparison, because 1999 (Biggio's 12th season) was Biggio's last "great" season.  He was a 5.1 WAR player and finished top-20 MVP.  He would never see another award or top-20 finish.  Altuve just finished his 12th season.  He was also a 5.1 WAR player and finished in the top-20 MVP (5th).  Does he spiral down like Biggio or does he still have some more very high quality seasons in him?

Biggio:

1868 Hits
152 HR
1120 Runs
706 RBI
346 SB
.292/.381/.437 .817 OPS (124 OPS+)
7x AS
5x SS
4x GG
56.2 WAR
1699 Games

Altuve:

1935 Hits
192 HR
986 Runs
696 RBI
279 SB
.307/.362/.468 .830 OPS (128 OPS+)
1x MVP
8x AS
1x GG
6x SS
1x ALCS MVP
2x WS Champion
46.5 WAR
1578 Games

Obviously Altuve has been the far far superior postseason performer (historically good until this season), and the better overall productive hitter with more accolades to show for it.  But Biggio played a higher level of defense and had more value on the basepaths.  He was also a healthy juggernaut for several years.  It makes me appreciate how good Biggio really was before he hit his decline.  Hopefully Altuve has at least 2-3 more very good seasons and doesn't experience the amount of decline Biggio did.

[unionstation82]

What’s wrong with Biggio?

[thomasj13]

Dec 14, 2022 18:22:50 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

What’s wrong with Biggio?

That shit right there is funny.

[Saint]

Dec 14, 2022 18:22:50 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

What’s wrong with Biggio?

Nothing the first 12 years, but the following years he stopped getting on base as well, tried to pull everything, his arm strength deteriorated, and he got moved to the OF which hurt his value.

[abregmanfan]

Biggio gave me something to be proud of in our rotten years. He is probably my favorite player ever, plus what he did with the Sunshine Kids. Having said that, Altuve is the better player.

[dafish]

Amazing mix of stats, that could give the nod to either.

'Tuve loses a notch for the cheating shit, so my vote goes to Biggio. 

[Saint]

Dec 28, 2022 9:36:18 GMT -6 dafish said:

Amazing mix of stats, that could give the nod to either.

'Tuve loses a notch for the cheating shit, so my vote goes to Biggio. 

Altuve knew about the sign-stealing but didn't take part in it.  Biggio knew teammates were using steroids, but didn't take part in it (as far as we know).

Seems like the same thing to me.

[dafish]

Dec 28, 2022 9:54:58 GMT -6 Saint said:

Dec 28, 2022 9:36:18 GMT -6 dafish said:

Amazing mix of stats, that could give the nod to either.

'Tuve loses a notch for the cheating shit, so my vote goes to Biggio. 

Altuve knew about the sign-stealing but didn't take part in it.  Biggio knew teammates were using steroids, but didn't take part in it (as far as we know).

Seems like the same thing to me.

Do we really know if Altuve wasn't a participant?  He sure seems to get the biggest adverse out of town reaction.

And in Biggio's case, even if he did know....   was it really his job or did he have any obligation to turn them in?

[Saint]

Dec 28, 2022 10:02:14 GMT -6 dafish said:

Dec 28, 2022 9:54:58 GMT -6 Saint said:

Altuve knew about the sign-stealing but didn't take part in it.  Biggio knew teammates were using steroids, but didn't take part in it (as far as we know).

Seems like the same thing to me.

Do we really know if Altuve wasn't a participant?  He sure seems to get the biggest adverse out of town reaction.

And in Biggio's case, even if he did know....   was it really his job or did he have any obligation to turn them in?

To the first question, when the bangs were counted, they found that Altuve, Reddick, and Kemp didn't receive hardly any (and teammate accounts reflect that).  Altuve was said to get mad the one time he heard the bangs and told them not to do it for him.  He gets the biggest adverse out of town reaction because he is the face of the franchise and he's been our best player for years. 

Why would Biggio not have an obligation but Altuve would...?

[dafish]

Dec 28, 2022 10:05:36 GMT -6 Saint said:

Dec 28, 2022 10:02:14 GMT -6 dafish said:

Do we really know if Altuve wasn't a participant?  He sure seems to get the biggest adverse out of town reaction.

And in Biggio's case, even if he did know....   was it really his job or did he have any obligation to turn them in?

To the first question, when the bangs were counted, they found that Altuve, Reddick, and Kemp didn't receive hardly any (and teammate accounts reflect that).  Altuve was said to get mad the one time he heard the bangs and told them not to do it for him.  He gets the biggest adverse out of town reaction because he is the face of the franchise and he's been our best player for years. 

Why would Biggio not have an obligation but Altuve would...?

You really think Biggio had an obligation to turn in Camanetti, and possibly Bagwell?

This would be like turning in your friends for defrauding the IRS if you knew they were doing it.  

I haven't heard the accounts of the can banging, and Altuve's participation.  Is this anecdotal, or are there documented accounts, testimonies, etc, of those facts?  If this is true, Altuve should counter with his side of the story.  Because a lot rides reputationally here, especially if he has any desire to be in the HOF. 

[Saint]

Dec 28, 2022 10:53:04 GMT -6 dafish said:

Dec 28, 2022 10:05:36 GMT -6 Saint said:

To the first question, when the bangs were counted, they found that Altuve, Reddick, and Kemp didn't receive hardly any (and teammate accounts reflect that).  Altuve was said to get mad the one time he heard the bangs and told them not to do it for him.  He gets the biggest adverse out of town reaction because he is the face of the franchise and he's been our best player for years. 

Why would Biggio not have an obligation but Altuve would...?

You really think Biggio had an obligation to turn in Camanetti, and possibly Bagwell?

This would be like turning in your friends for defrauding the IRS if you knew they were doing it.  

I haven't heard the accounts of the can banging, and Altuve's participation.  Is this anecdotal, or are there documented accounts, testimonies, etc, of those facts?  If this is true, Altuve should counter with his side of the story.  Because a lot rides reputationally here, especially if he has any desire to be in the HOF. 

No I don't think he had an obligation to turn in his friends.  But why are you saying Altuve should have?

It's not anecdotal.  People have literally gone through all of the games in 2017 and counted the bangs.  Also multiple players have expressed it to the media.  According to Ken Rosenthal, Altuve said that he didn't want to throw his friends and teammates under the bus by trying to defend himself when it was the whole team involved even if he wasn't using it himself.  

[dafish]

Dec 28, 2022 10:57:02 GMT -6 Saint said:

Dec 28, 2022 10:53:04 GMT -6 dafish said:

You really think Biggio had an obligation to turn in Camanetti, and possibly Bagwell?

This would be like turning in your friends for defrauding the IRS if you knew they were doing it.  

I haven't heard the accounts of the can banging, and Altuve's participation.  Is this anecdotal, or are there documented accounts, testimonies, etc, of those facts?  If this is true, Altuve should counter with his side of the story.  Because a lot rides reputationally here, especially if he has any desire to be in the HOF. 

No I don't think he had an obligation to turn in his friends.  But why are you saying Altuve should have?

It's not anecdotal.  People have literally gone through all of the games in 2017 and counted the bangs.  Also multiple players have expressed it to the media.  According to Ken Rosenthal, Altuve said that he didn't want to throw his friends and teammates under the bus by trying to defend himself when it was the whole team involved even if he wasn't using it himself.  

Not saying he should have, far from it.  But if he does want to save his legacy, including a trip to the HOF, he better do some damage control, and fast.  And more than sharing low key details with Rosenthal. 

[Saint]

Dec 28, 2022 11:06:43 GMT -6 dafish said:

Dec 28, 2022 10:57:02 GMT -6 Saint said:

No I don't think he had an obligation to turn in his friends.  But why are you saying Altuve should have?

It's not anecdotal.  People have literally gone through all of the games in 2017 and counted the bangs.  Also multiple players have expressed it to the media.  According to Ken Rosenthal, Altuve said that he didn't want to throw his friends and teammates under the bus by trying to defend himself when it was the whole team involved even if he wasn't using it himself.  

Not saying he should have, far from it.  But if he does want to save his legacy, including a trip to the HOF, he better do some damage control, and fast.  And more than sharing low key details with Rosenthal. 

I don't think he is worried about that.  Unless he just completely collapses, I expect he'll have no issue making the HoF a decade or more from now. He was already the fan-selected all-star just this season. 

[dafish]

Dec 28, 2022 11:11:55 GMT -6 Saint said:

Dec 28, 2022 11:06:43 GMT -6 dafish said:

Not saying he should have, far from it.  But if he does want to save his legacy, including a trip to the HOF, he better do some damage control, and fast.  And more than sharing low key details with Rosenthal. 

I don't think he is worried about that.  Unless he just completely collapses, I expect he'll have no issue making the HoF a decade or more from now. He was already the fan-selected all-star just this season. 

I hope you are right, but don't forget the likes of Bonds, A-Rod, and Clemens also were getting AS selections too.

Sportswriters are tad less forgiving, and that is who makes the HOF selections. Stat wise I think he is pretty close to a lock.    Somehow  he has to convince 25% of them that the scandal does not disqualify him.  That will be the tough part. 

[Saint]

Dec 28, 2022 11:32:54 GMT -6 dafish said:

Dec 28, 2022 11:11:55 GMT -6 Saint said:

I don't think he is worried about that.  Unless he just completely collapses, I expect he'll have no issue making the HoF a decade or more from now. He was already the fan-selected all-star just this season. 

I hope you are right, but don't forget the likes of Bonds, A-Rod, and Clemens also were getting AS selections too.

Sportswriters are tad less forgiving, and that is who makes the HOF selections. Stat wise I think he is pretty close to a lock.    Somehow  he has to convince 25% of them that the scandal does not disqualify him.  That will be the tough part. 

We'll see how Beltran gets treated.  He's due up first and everybody viewed him as a lock before the sign-stealing. 

[Ashitaka]

signstealingscandal.com/

today.duke.edu/2020/07/did-cheating-actually-help-houston-astros-win-world-series

If Altuve had some obligation to rat on guys doing something that was against baseball's rules that he wasn't doing and that probably didn't help them much anyway, then I think Biggio certainly had an obligation to rat on guys doing something that was a federal felony that he wasn't doing and that certainly helped them perform better.