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Post by Saint on Jan 25, 2023 16:04:01 GMT -6
Willie Mays
Richie Ashburn
Kenny Lofton
Cool Papa Bell
Joe DiMaggio
Ty Cobb
Larry Doby
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mickey Mantle
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Hack Wilson
Kirby Puckett
Billy Hamilton
Jim Edmonds
Carlos Beltran
All CFers I would take over Andruw Jones. And I'd be tempted to put Cesar Cedeno ahead of him too, but he played more than just CF.
Again though, I'm not saying Andruw Jones is UNDESERVING. He just isn't high on my list of upsets.
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Post by Saint on Jan 25, 2023 16:06:30 GMT -6
Why do people lump OF together but not INF? Jones was an elite CF, not just some chunky dude in LF. You wouldn't lump 1B in with SS right? Generational talent. Dude hit two bombs in his first two WS plate appearances at age 19. That's cool and all, but he was nothing more than a roleplayer around the time he turned 30 if I remember right. To me, he is like Don Mattingly. Great first half of a career, but then they fell off the tracks and are now borderline HoFers. I'm good with them either way. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 25, 2023 16:26:54 GMT -6
HOF isn't a top 10 list
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 25, 2023 16:44:13 GMT -6
Why do people lump OF together but not INF? Jones was an elite CF, not just some chunky dude in LF. You wouldn't lump 1B in with SS right? I consider 3B, SS, and 2B kind of a lump, to be honest. There are differences, of course. But even amongst CFers, I wouldn't consider Andruw Jones a top-10 all-time CFer. I'd even still rank Kenny Lofton as more deserving than him too. Lofton was phenomenal for a stretch before he became a bit of a journeyman. Both should be in. Rolen was meh. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 25, 2023 16:59:25 GMT -6
I think the main reason why Jones isn’t inducted is because of how he spells his first name.
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Post by Saint on Jan 25, 2023 17:01:41 GMT -6
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Post by Saint on Jan 25, 2023 17:02:46 GMT -6
I consider 3B, SS, and 2B kind of a lump, to be honest. There are differences, of course. But even amongst CFers, I wouldn't consider Andruw Jones a top-10 all-time CFer. I'd even still rank Kenny Lofton as more deserving than him too. Lofton was phenomenal for a stretch before he became a bit of a journeyman. Both should be in. Rolen was meh. To me, Rolen had too many awards and secondary milestones, plus a 70+ WAR to say he was meh. He seems like an easy HoFer to me. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 25, 2023 17:13:09 GMT -6
Lofton was phenomenal for a stretch before he became a bit of a journeyman. Both should be in. Rolen was meh. To me, Rolen had too many awards and secondary milestones, plus a 70+ WAR to say he was meh. He seems like an easy HoFer to me. Careerwise, his impressive offensive stat is the doubles. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 25, 2023 18:12:56 GMT -6
You, with your "he isn't even a top-10 all time" |
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Post by Saint on Jan 25, 2023 19:54:09 GMT -6
You, with your "he isn't even a top-10 all time" No, I'm making a comparison on why Rolen might be in already despite Andruw Jones being better in some aspects. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 25, 2023 21:14:14 GMT -6
Stunning to see Helton get as much love as he does while Kent falls off and some like Andruw Jones never get close. And hey, Berkman finished with a 144 OPS+ compared to Helton's 133, and was initially an outfielder (even a CF!) and hit just three fewer HR in two fewer seasons, and outside of Coors. But no love for him when he hit the ballot. The Helton love is just confusing to me. Great hitter, but not close to the HoF. I just don’t get all the fuss about any Rockies player. I liked Larry Walker quite a bit, but offensive numbers at Coors Field are always a bit sketchy. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 25, 2023 23:47:39 GMT -6
Kent and Rolen both played 17 seasons with a career .855 OPS. Kent had 1000 more PAs, 600 more total bases and four top-10 finishes in the MVP vote, compared to one for Rolen. Maybe Kent didn't make many friends over the years that are still associated with the game
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 25, 2023 23:50:05 GMT -6
The veterans committee will probably let him in
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 25, 2023 23:59:17 GMT -6
The last player to get inducted with a career OPS as low as Rolen's was Jim Rice
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Post by thomasj13 on Jan 26, 2023 7:36:38 GMT -6
The last player to get inducted with a career OPS as low as Rolen's was Jim Rice Totally Racial, Jim got the Asian vote |
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Post by Saint on Jan 26, 2023 9:08:24 GMT -6
Kent and Rolen both played 17 seasons with a career .855 OPS. Kent had 1000 more PAs, 600 more total bases and four top-10 finishes in the MVP vote, compared to one for Rolen. Maybe Kent didn't make many friends over the years that are still associated with the game Kent should have been in years ago. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 26, 2023 10:13:58 GMT -6
Kent and Rolen both played 17 seasons with a career .855 OPS. Kent had 1000 more PAs, 600 more total bases and four top-10 finishes in the MVP vote, compared to one for Rolen. Maybe Kent didn't make many friends over the years that are still associated with the game Kent should have been in years ago. Seems to me Rolen's in despite being injured more than Kent. The system's broken |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 26, 2023 10:19:37 GMT -6
The last player to get inducted with a career OPS as low as Rolen's was Jim Rice Totally Racial, Jim got the Asian vote Teen Tia Carrere was in an old A-Team episode I forgot about watching on cable last week |
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Post by Saint on Jan 26, 2023 10:41:58 GMT -6
Kent should have been in years ago. Seems to me Rolen's in despite being injured more than Kent. The system's broken I think the increase in awareness to defensive value is what got Rolen in, and it's what kept Kent from gaining a lot of votes. Rolen was viewed as an elite defender and very good hitter with all of the secondary milestones, while Kent was viewed as a very good hitter for a 2B but not good enough to cover up mediocre defense and no baserunning value. Too one-sided from an era of great offense. He just didn't have that milestone or significant thing/stat/event that wowed the voters. It might sound dumb, but if he had reached 400 HRs I think that would have gotten him in. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 26, 2023 12:36:00 GMT -6
Seems to me Rolen's in despite being injured more than Kent. The system's broken I think the increase in awareness to defensive value is what got Rolen in, and it's what kept Kent from gaining a lot of votes. Rolen was viewed as an elite defender and very good hitter with all of the secondary milestones, while Kent was viewed as a very good hitter for a 2B but not good enough to cover up mediocre defense and no baserunning value. Too one-sided from an era of great offense. He just didn't have that milestone or significant thing/stat/event that wowed the voters. It might sound dumb, but if he had reached 400 HRs I think that would have gotten him in. I don't really care about who used PEDs, but I'll always be suspicious Rolen did cause he fell way off between 2004 and 2005, which happened to be the offseason MLB announced it was instituting suspensions for positive tests for the first time. Folks will say Rolen was hurt that year, but players took steroids foremost to recover from injury. Mike Lowell was another player that did that in '05 |
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Post by Saint on Jan 26, 2023 12:41:29 GMT -6
I think the increase in awareness to defensive value is what got Rolen in, and it's what kept Kent from gaining a lot of votes. Rolen was viewed as an elite defender and very good hitter with all of the secondary milestones, while Kent was viewed as a very good hitter for a 2B but not good enough to cover up mediocre defense and no baserunning value. Too one-sided from an era of great offense. He just didn't have that milestone or significant thing/stat/event that wowed the voters. It might sound dumb, but if he had reached 400 HRs I think that would have gotten him in. I don't really care about who used PEDs, but I'll always be suspicious Rolen did cause he fell way off between 2004 and 2005, which happened to be the offseason MLB announced it was instituting suspensions for positive tests for the first time. Folks will say Rolen was hurt that year, but players took steroids foremost to recover from injury. Mike Lowell was another player that did that in '05 Possibly, but he bounced right back in 2006, and before injuries finally took him out in his last two partial seasons, you didn't see much drop off in his performance from 06-10. In any case, at this point I pretty much assume all of the players were using something. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 27, 2023 14:10:28 GMT -6
Kent and Rolen both played 17 seasons with a career .855 OPS. Kent had 1000 more PAs, 600 more total bases and four top-10 finishes in the MVP vote, compared to one for Rolen. Maybe Kent didn't make many friends over the years that are still associated with the game Kent should have been in years ago. The same reason that got Rolen inducted is what kept Kent out. |
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