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Post by unionstation82 on Jun 12, 2018 15:21:30 GMT -6
Why would another GM give up major league ready talent for a rental? What are the odds that the Astros would receive major league ready talent for Keuchel? Why wouldn’t other teams be skeptical of the Astros doing this?
Think about it.
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Post by bearbryant on Jun 12, 2018 16:16:29 GMT -6
I believe Keuchel’s hiring of egotistical super agent Scott Boras during the off-season has only made his mental disposition and attitude even worse as you can tell by the quotes from the Houston Chronicle
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Post by astrosdoug on Jun 12, 2018 17:59:38 GMT -6
regardless of whether Keuchel gets traded (which I presume has only a pretty remote chance of happening), I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching. Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material, though of course how the starters "look" changes from week to week. The team would need 3 healthy/reliable/quality starters for the playoffs minimum. If Luhnow thinks that
(a) the entire Morton/McCullers/Keuchel trio may be toast by September, and
(b) none of Whitley/McHugh/Peacock/Armenteros can be counted on be that third quality postseason starter,
then maybe he pursues a SP.
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Post by Saint on Jun 12, 2018 18:32:23 GMT -6
regardless of whether Keuchel gets traded (which I presume has only a pretty remote chance of happening), I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching. Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material, though of course how the starters "look" changes from week to week. The team would need 3 healthy/reliable/quality starters for the playoffs minimum. If Luhnow thinks that (a) the entire Morton/McCullers/Keuchel trio may be toast by September, and (b) none of Whitley/McHugh/Peacock/Armenteros can be counted on be that third quality postseason starter, then maybe he pursues a SP. I'd be completely amazed if they traded for a starter unless it was somebody with multi-year control to help with Keuchel and/or Morton leaving. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jun 12, 2018 18:40:39 GMT -6
Has CFM's last 2 games really been bad enough to drop him to the level of "Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material"? The dude was lights out in his first 8 or so starts.
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Post by astrosdoug on Jun 12, 2018 19:12:45 GMT -6
Like I said, this is nothing more than a real outside possibility. I think/hope Morton will pitch more like the Charlie we know and love. I wouldn't put too much stock in what :Charlie does over a couple outings (whether good or bad). But if Luhnow gets word from Strom or the team trainer that something is physically out of whack with Charlie/Lance/Dallas, it might cause him to look into starters.
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Post by Saint on Jun 12, 2018 19:28:51 GMT -6
Has CFM's last 2 games really been bad enough to drop him to the level of "Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material"? The dude was lights out in his first 8 or so starts. Keuchel was pretty good overall his first 11 starts too but people are ready to drop him. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jun 12, 2018 19:46:07 GMT -6
I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching.
In 1984 the Red Sox traded Dennis Eckersley to the Cubs for Bill Buckner. Guess which team made the playoffs |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jun 12, 2018 19:50:52 GMT -6
Has CFM's last 2 games really been bad enough to drop him to the level of "Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material"? The dude was lights out in his first 8 or so starts. Keuchel was pretty good overall his first 11 starts too but people are ready to drop him. Trading Keuchel has reached local sports radio talk. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jun 12, 2018 19:51:59 GMT -6
I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching.
In 1984 the Red Sox traded Dennis Eckersley to the Cubs for Bill Buckner. Guess which team made the playoffsIf the Astros were bad, then yes it makes sense. You trade an expiring contract to a contender for good prospects. That doesn’t apply now because they want to win now. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jun 12, 2018 23:35:22 GMT -6
regardless of whether Keuchel gets traded (which I presume has only a pretty remote chance of happening), I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching. Right now, only Verlander and Cole look like playoff material, though of course how the starters "look" changes from week to week. The team would need 3 healthy/reliable/quality starters for the playoffs minimum. If Luhnow thinks that (a) the entire Morton/McCullers/Keuchel trio may be toast by September, and (b) none of Whitley/McHugh/Peacock/Armenteros can be counted on be that third quality postseason starter, then maybe he pursues a SP. Luhnow could be after another starter, but,my guess is he will go after a top reliever and maybe another bat. I won't be surprised if Morton and McCullers get it together. McCullers looked pretty good in Oakland tonight., |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jun 12, 2018 23:37:22 GMT -6
Keuchel was pretty good overall his first 11 starts too but people are ready to drop him. Trading Keuchel has reached local sports radio talk. Lots of people see Keuchel continuing to get worse with each start. I am afraid too many who still defend him remember his Cy Young year......He has been nowhere close to that good since that year. Right now, he isn't fooling many of the hitters. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 1:59:55 GMT -6
You never, NEVER sell low on a player that has quality material. Keuchel has fallen from a #1 to now a #5 on this team (mainly due to the personnel we acquired in the last year). What does Keuchel do for this team? He gives us a solid pitcher that when healthy can get us 6-8 innings on any given night. He, like Marwin, are under-performing right now which is fine by me. We don't need either of them to be elite during the regular season as we have enough talent to still win 100 games and the division. Regardless of how well Seattle is doing there is no way they win that many this year (and I highly expect the falloff soon with them).
Like Beltran last year, I want Keuchel and Marwin for the post season experience. The attitude in the club house is what kept this team going last year all the way to a ring. You can see the same sense this season, especially of late. This team is the real deal. They are the Golden State Warriors of MLB. There are other teams doing better at this moment, but we have way too much talent and depth to NOT be exactly where we want to be come October.
Keuchel is still good enough to get us 12 wins this season and a few more in the post season. That includes against the Yankees who he owns. I'm happy with the starting rotation and hitters that we have. And if Keuchel can't right himself by the post season then he will be the odd man out in a contract year. Who would sign him for over $100 million then? We very well may get him for more years for cheap if that were the case.
He's an Astro. If our worst players not named Marisnick are Keuchel and Marwin then I am happy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 2:03:10 GMT -6
You never, NEVER sell low on a player that has quality material. Keuchel has fallen from a #1 to now a #5 on this team (mainly due to the personnel we acquired in the last year). What does Keuchel do for this team? He gives us a solid pitcher that when healthy can get us 6-8 innings on any given night. He, like Marwin, are under-performing right now which is fine by me. We don't need either of them to be elite during the regular season as we have enough talent to still win 100 games and the division. Regardless of how well Seattle is doing there is no way they win that many this year (and I highly expect the falloff soon with them). Like Beltran last year, I want Keuchel and Marwin for the post season experience. The attitude in the club house is what kept this team going last year all the way to a ring. You can see the same sense this season, especially of late. This team is the real deal. They are the Golden State Warriors of MLB. There are other teams doing better at this moment, but we have way too much talent and depth to NOT be exactly where we want to be come October. Keuchel is still good enough to get us 12 wins this season and a few more in the post season. That includes against the Yankees who he owns. I'm happy with the starting rotation and hitters that we have. And if Keuchel can't right himself by the post season then he will be the odd man out in a contract year. Who would sign him for over $100 million then? We very well may get him for more years for cheap if that were the case. Either way, we have the luxury of starting McHugh or Peacock for a few games while Keuchel takes his yearly DL stint to fix his mind. He's an Astro. If our worst players not named Marisnick are Keuchel and Marwin then I am happy. |
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Post by astrosdoug on Jun 13, 2018 2:59:03 GMT -6
I have started to wonder if Luhnow might pull a July surprise and actually go after starting pitching.
In 1984 the Red Sox traded Dennis Eckersley to the Cubs for Bill Buckner. Guess which team made the playoffsHold on Bear, why so testy? I have never suggested anyone here is an idiot. That doesn't contribute to a fan community. If you read what I wrote, I didn't say anything along the lines of "Luhnow should trade for a SP" or "All the pitchers besides Cole and Verlander are crap". I was simply pointing out that Luhnow often does deals that seam head-scratchers at first, and I'm trying to speculate as to what he might do. In such a case, a team may wish to add a pitcher. The only think I am somewhat sure about with regard to Luhnow is that he will surprise me. Nor was I suggesting Luhnow should or would trade SP away. I'm simply trying to go through the mind exercise that I think all good GMs do, which is to say "What if?", i.e. What if 2 SP's are sidelined for the rest of the season? What if 2 starting OF's are out till next year? Etc etc. |
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Post by marshall on Jun 13, 2018 7:12:48 GMT -6
Apologies to the moderator, but I think anyone who would suggest we trade starting pitching in mid-major league pennant chase is an idiot. I've never known that to be a successful strategy
In 1984 the Red Sox traded Dennis Eckersley to the Cubs for Bill Buckner. Guess which team made the playoffs Hold on Bear, why so testy? I have never suggested anyone here is an idiot. That doesn't contribute to a fan community. If you read what I wrote, I didn't say anything along the lines of "Luhnow should trade for a SP" or "All the pitchers besides Cole and Verlander are crap". I was simply pointing out that Luhnow often does deals that seam head-scratchers at first, and I'm trying to speculate as to what he might do. In such a case, a team may wish to add a pitcher. The only think I am somewhat sure about with regard to Luhnow is that he will surprise me. Nor was I suggesting Luhnow should or would trade SP away. I'm simply trying to go through the mind exercise that I think all good GMs do, which is to say "What if?", i.e. What if 2 SP's are sidelined for the rest of the season? What if 2 starting OF's are out till next year? Etc etc. It's a different mindset. Strategic planning is definitely the BIG PICTURE and is filled by the GM. Operations is more like AJ. They both have the same goal, but different roles. If they respect each other, things usually go better. Of course, I immediately think of George Steinbrenner/Billy Martin which counter's this argument. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jun 13, 2018 7:16:02 GMT -6
Nor was I suggesting Luhnow should or would trade SP away. |
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Post by cajunstros on Jun 13, 2018 7:18:04 GMT -6
I agree that keuchel has pitched terribly, especially more recently. I know people want to trade him because everyone expects him to walk after this year so why not get something in return. That being said, the ONLY trade partners you would find for a rental are playoff contenders. So let me ask you this, would you really want face Keuchel in the playoffs?
Has he struggled lately, yes, but I envision a DL stint coming up. He doesn’t look right and some time off with a minor league rehab may not be a bad idea.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by marshall on Jun 13, 2018 7:22:38 GMT -6
I agree that keuchel has pitched terribly, especially more recently. I know people want to trade him because everyone expects him to walk after this year so why not get something in return. That being said, the ONLY trade partners you would find for a rental are playoff contenders. So let me ask you this, would you really want face Keuchel in the playoffs? Has he struggled lately, yes, but I envision a DL stint coming up. He doesn’t look right and some time off with a minor league rehab may not be a bad idea. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think both Morton and Keuchel have fixable problems, but I'm not sure they can do it while in the rotation. I wouldn't mind a few spot starts for McHugh or Peacock while they figure it out.
McCullers on the other hand, appears to be able to work things out between starts.
While I don't want to trade Keuchel, I wouldn't mind a quality addition. But I wouldn't want an average pitcher.
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Post by paastrosfan on Jun 13, 2018 7:44:35 GMT -6
I agree that keuchel has pitched terribly, especially more recently. I know people want to trade him because everyone expects him to walk after this year so why not get something in return. That being said, the ONLY trade partners you would find for a rental are playoff contenders. So let me ask you this, would you really want face Keuchel in the playoffs? Has he struggled lately, yes, but I envision a DL stint coming up. He doesn’t look right and some time off with a minor league rehab may not be a bad idea. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think both Morton and Keuchel have fixable problems, but I'm not sure they can do it while in the rotation. I wouldn't mind a few spot starts for McHugh or Peacock while they figure it out.
McCullers on the other hand, appears to be able to work things out between starts.
While I don't want to trade Keuchel, I wouldn't mind a quality addition. But I wouldn't want an average pitcher.
That is just it Marsh the market is tight and who really is available. Then again the competition for a starter is going to be the Yankees, who are probably already in the hunt even more now that Tanaka has gone down. I have mentioned this in the past they have the surplus in the minors to make a deal and not really hurt their system for the future. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jun 13, 2018 12:24:51 GMT -6
Nor was I suggesting Luhnow should or would trade SP away. Feel free to say you were talking about me.....I won't cry and claim I'm running off to Florida to work with all-stars. Normally, you don't trade starting pitching in the middle of a pennant race. We were in one last year when Mike Fiers was getting bombed start after start....Did you think we should have kept him? We would have been better off to have traded him, if possible. If not, we should have released him. All he was doing was talking up a roster spot. As it turned out, he wasnt on the playoff roster and I doubt if he would have been even if we had not acquired Verlander. He was totally ineffective. Keuchel is not yet to that point, but, he is gradually becoming more ineffective. I think the hitters are learning how to deal with him and it's telling. You don't trade away EFFECTIVE starting pitchers even if they are in the last year of a contract. If we didn't have options to replace Keuchel, I would not even consider trading him. At this point, it is likely that McHugh or Peacock would be giving us better starts than Keuchel, who is not only not being effective, but, is wearing out the bullpen in the process. Give him another start.....he is scheduled for KC this weekend.....If he is not effective, put him in the pen. McHugh adjusted to the pen so maybe Dallas can as well. We won't be able to get much if we did trade him at the present time. I don't think Luhnow deals for a starter. More likely he goes after a top reliever. I realize that I'm an "idiot" and not as "valuable" as a certain individual who thinks he can't be wrong, but, I'll try to do better. You would think after spending all of these years in the game that I would have more value.  |
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Post by m240 on Jun 13, 2018 13:01:20 GMT -6
I know you weren't; I was talking about someone else Feel free to say you were talking about me.....I won't cry and claim I'm running off to Florida to work with all-stars. Normally, you don't trade starting pitching in the middle of a pennant race. We were in one last year when Mike Fiers was getting bombed start after start....Did you think we should have kept him? We would have been better off to have traded him, if possible. If not, we should have released him. All he was doing was talking up a roster spot. As it turned out, he wasnt on the playoff roster and I doubt if he would have been even if we had not acquired Verlander. He was totally ineffective. Keuchel is not yet to that point, but, he is gradually becoming more ineffective. I think the hitters are learning how to deal with him and it's telling. You don't trade away EFFECTIVE starting pitchers even if they are in the last year of a contract. If we didn't have options to replace Keuchel, I would not even consider trading him. At this point, it is likely that McHugh or Peacock would be giving us better starts than Keuchel, who is not only not being effective, but, is wearing out the bullpen in the process. Give him another start.....he is scheduled for KC this weekend.....If he is not effective, put him in the pen. McHugh adjusted to the pen so maybe Dallas can as well. We won't be able to get much if we did trade him at the present time. I don't think Luhnow deals for a starter. More likely he goes after a top reliever. I realize that I'm an "idiot" and not as "valuable" as a certain individual who thinks he can't be wrong, but, I'll try to do better. You would think after spending all of these years in the game that I would have more value. Man you sure like to pick at scabs. Keuchel needs to be razor sharp with his control to be effective. More so now than before because you are right, guys have figured out that you have to see a lot of pitches to see enough strikes against Keuchel, so he needs to be sharp and paint the edges, and right now he is not. My guess is that he has a tired arm. Others think he has lost it, others just think he is going to a bad stretch. No one knows for sure. Bottom line we get a bag of oranges if we trade him so that is dumb. If we cut him and all he needed was a break we look like dumb asses like we did with JD Martinez, so that makes no sense. The reason we go for as much depth as we do is so that we can make little moves to help guys out. So put him on the dl and give Peacock a few starts, I am pretty sure that he will do better than Keuchel would do right now. |
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Post by Saint on Jun 13, 2018 13:39:35 GMT -6
He's had a little bad luck recently and he isn't as sharp. A game off might not hurt but I think he'll be fine.
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Post by blcoach8 on Jun 13, 2018 13:42:30 GMT -6
Feel free to say you were talking about me.....I won't cry and claim I'm running off to Florida to work with all-stars. Normally, you don't trade starting pitching in the middle of a pennant race. We were in one last year when Mike Fiers was getting bombed start after start....Did you think we should have kept him? We would have been better off to have traded him, if possible. If not, we should have released him. All he was doing was talking up a roster spot. As it turned out, he wasnt on the playoff roster and I doubt if he would have been even if we had not acquired Verlander. He was totally ineffective. Keuchel is not yet to that point, but, he is gradually becoming more ineffective. I think the hitters are learning how to deal with him and it's telling. You don't trade away EFFECTIVE starting pitchers even if they are in the last year of a contract. If we didn't have options to replace Keuchel, I would not even consider trading him. At this point, it is likely that McHugh or Peacock would be giving us better starts than Keuchel, who is not only not being effective, but, is wearing out the bullpen in the process. Give him another start.....he is scheduled for KC this weekend.....If he is not effective, put him in the pen. McHugh adjusted to the pen so maybe Dallas can as well. We won't be able to get much if we did trade him at the present time. I don't think Luhnow deals for a starter. More likely he goes after a top reliever. I realize that I'm an "idiot" and not as "valuable" as a certain individual who thinks he can't be wrong, but, I'll try to do better. You would think after spending all of these years in the game that I would have more value. Man you sure like to pick at scabs. Keuchel needs to be razor sharp with his control to be effective. More so now than before because you are right, guys have figured out that you have to see a lot of pitches to see enough strikes against Keuchel, so he needs to be sharp and paint the edges, and right now he is not. My guess is that he has a tired arm. Others think he has lost it, others just think he is going to a bad stretch. No one knows for sure. Bottom line we get a bag of oranges if we trade him so that is dumb. If we cut him and all he needed was a break we look like dumb asses like we did with JD Martinez, so that makes no sense. The reason we go for as much depth as we do is so that we can make little moves to help guys out. So put him on the dl and give Peacock a few starts, I am pretty sure that he will do better than Keuchel would do right now. Just wanted to be clear that he could say who he was talking about....You are dead right and seem to share my opinion and probably worded it better. He does have to be very sharp with his control, and, he is in big trouble if he gets a plate umpire who won't call low pitches or give the outside corner. It would be great if we could set our rotation according to which umpire is scheduled to work the plate, but, that's not feasible. He could have a tired arm or lost it and you are right that there is no way to tell. It would not hurt a thing to put him on the 10-day DL to either rest or work on his problems. He seems to be getting more ineffective with each start. I hope you don't get blasted for partly thinking with an idiot who has no value. |
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