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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 12:32:51 GMT -6
Trying to get a solid time line here. When did the rumours start? I didn't hear about it until the end of the '19 season. Do you have evidence otherwise? Not saying you are wrong, but that kind of information shoulld have been extracted during the investigation. Even during the 2018 postseason Cleveland was supposedly warning Boston about us. And do you remember the Astros employee that got taking pictures of the opposing duguout in the playoffs? Luhnow made some excuse about us looking for them cheating. And didn't that White Sox pitcher Farraquar (sp?) report something in 2017 with the banging? At the time, I think it was thought to be good old fashion run of the mill sign stealing that all teams employ. I don't remember hearing about the '17 situation with Farraquar. Would like to see a link to that, if you have it. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 14, 2020 12:34:05 GMT -6
For anybody in here that has been the leader of a team, department, organization, etc. you know that the ups and downs are on you. You may not be the one doing it, but it's your people. I don't have a problem with the leaders being held accountable (especially since that's what Manfred warned the league he would do), but I think some of the players/instigators should be penalized as well, if it can be known who did what. It sounds like Crane didn't know it was going on and is legitimately upset by it, but he certainly has had a role in some of the recent negative attention the team has received. I will always believe that people of that amount of wealth have had to get their hands at least a little dirty at some point. Right or wrong, Crane owns the team and it's his to control. I feel worse for Hinch than Luhnow, but they're smart and capable. They'll find their way out of this. But, it was made clear they would be held responsible. If I'm in their shoes, I'm doing what it takes to make sure I don't get caught up in it. They either looked the other way (Hinch) and/or got lazy/didn't care enough (Luhnow). Hopefully Crane makes good choices on their replacements and we can all move on from this. I hope Beltran gets canned and Cora gets banned. Boston better have a damn similar punishment for their 2018 nonsense as well. It's Boston's 2nd offense...their punishment should be worse than ours. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 14, 2020 12:41:21 GMT -6
I agree with Catfish. The 1-year suspensions were a just sentence, but Hinch and Luhnow shouldn't have been fired. They weren't the instigators
Crane is dumb
I agree that firing Luhnow may be considered a mistake. Firing Hinch was not. Hinch knew, he knew and he let it continue without pulling those two mullets into his office and reading them the riot act. Absolutely unforgivable. Luhnow did show a major weakness in this and maybe for Crane that was enough. Luhnow is most guilty of creating or allowing to be created a culture based on "winwinwin, rules be damned" to thrive throughout the system. It's shown in everything from Osuna, Taubman, reports of a toxic work environment in the front office, firing of MiLB scouts enmasse, and trashcans. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Jan 14, 2020 12:41:37 GMT -6
It's taken me a while to sort this out in my mind, but here goes:
1. Fiers- He broke "the code" of baseball silence and will be a pariah in MLB circles for the rest of his life. He's also a hypocrite for not standing up to the cheating when he was on the team that was doing it. I seriously doubt he'll be turning in his WS ring either. Regardless, it's not his fault the team cheated, though he was complicit with it at the time. And I don't buy his "I just did it for the younger players" crap. He had an axe to grind against the Astros and he stabbed them in the back with it.
2. Crane- He knew about it. Dumb guys don't get to be billionaires, and Crane isn't dumb. But because he is one of the 30 bosses of Manfred and he undoubtedly insulated himself from the day-to-day goings-on (no paper trail), he gets a free pass. Baseball itself is corrupt. Which is no surprise. Any business where money is involved on this kind of scale is corrupt by default.
3. Luhnow- He did know about it, his post-firing denial notwithstanding. He received the emails talking about it (as an aside, if you're going to frickin' cheat, how stupid can you be to leave an email record?). If by some bizarre twist he didn't know about it, then he should have been fired for not knowing what was going on. Luhnow is far from stupid. He knew what was going on which makes his tweet about "no knowledge" even more sickening.
4. Hinch- What a freaking moron. Just wow. You had enough moral fiber to attack inanimate monitors but not enough to confront grown men. And then you smugly denied any cheating on television. Adios.
5. The players- I don't know which ones used the system (other than Gattis) and which ones didn't, but since (apparently) not a single one had the guts to stand up to it you can consider them all complicit. How legitimate are Altuve's batting titles and MVP now? How legit are any of their stats? How good are they really, now that they won't have advanced notice of what pitch is coming? We'll soon find out.
6. The Championship- The report stated the cheating continued throughout the playoffs. IF THAT'S TRUE, it's tainted. No, I didn't believe they would nor do I think they should vacate the title. It would be impossible at this point to reconstruct, pitch by pitch or even game by game, how much or indeed if any cheating aided in a particular situation. The championship is legitimate, but it is tainted.
7. Other teams- If an unbiased investigative agency crawled up every MLB team's ass with a microscope and could magically convince those in the know to tell the truth I'd wager that EVERY ONE of them could be nailed for something and that probably a dozen or so did things just as egregious as the Astros. The sanctimonious screams of Yankee and Dodger fans sticks in my craw; I truly hope their teams are unblemished, but I'd bet my retirement account that they're not. However, you can't convict on innuendo or supposition, and absent proof we'll have to take the ridicule in stride.
8. The 2020 season- In light of Manfred's ban hammer, I'm going to bet a lot of teams curtail whatever it was they were doing. Consequently, we might see a more even playing field this year which means stats are going to be down all over MLB. You are going to see some pitchers have much better seasons while hitters will struggle more. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the Dodgers or Yankees have more sophisticated systems (or maybe they don't) and aren't stupid enough to put anything down on paper or electronic media. I hope the Astros win the WS in 2020...legitimately.
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Jan 14, 2020 12:46:48 GMT -6
Good post, but I do want to bring up a few facts to this matter. for consideration 1. I figure Crane attended 50-65 games a year on average the past 3 or 4 years. 2. Distance from his box behind hime plate to Astros dugout- 100-120 feet 3. Distance from GM box to dugout 200 feet(?) plus angles and additional crowd noise. So let me get this straight.... In the past 3 years Crane has attended about 150-200 games, and never noticed the strange so called banging from the dugout? Seems to me, he should have been more suspicious than Luhnow. His faux outrage is appalling. How did Julia Morales not hear the banging? I'd wager Julia hears banging all the time. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 12:47:37 GMT -6
Even during the 2018 postseason Cleveland was supposedly warning Boston about us. And do you remember the Astros employee that got taking pictures of the opposing duguout in the playoffs? Luhnow made some excuse about us looking for them cheating. And didn't that White Sox pitcher Farraquar (sp?) report something in 2017 with the banging? At the time, I think it was thought to be good old fashion run of the mill sign stealing that all teams employ. I don't remember hearing about the '17 situation with Farraquar. Would like to see a link to that, if you have it. I don't know that there was any article in 2017, but I believe he has stated since then that he reported it in 2017. I don't have a link readily available. I'd have to Google. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 12:50:10 GMT -6
For anybody in here that has been the leader of a team, department, organization, etc. you know that the ups and downs are on you. You may not be the one doing it, but it's your people. I don't have a problem with the leaders being held accountable (especially since that's what Manfred warned the league he would do), but I think some of the players/instigators should be penalized as well, if it can be known who did what. It sounds like Crane didn't know it was going on and is legitimately upset by it, but he certainly has had a role in some of the recent negative attention the team has received. I will always believe that people of that amount of wealth have had to get their hands at least a little dirty at some point. Right or wrong, Crane owns the team and it's his to control. I feel worse for Hinch than Luhnow, but they're smart and capable. They'll find their way out of this. But, it was made clear they would be held responsible. If I'm in their shoes, I'm doing what it takes to make sure I don't get caught up in it. They either looked the other way (Hinch) and/or got lazy/didn't care enough (Luhnow). Hopefully Crane makes good choices on their replacements and we can all move on from this. I hope Beltran gets canned and Cora gets banned. Boston better have a damn similar punishment for their 2018 nonsense as well. It's Boston's 2nd offense...their punishment should be worse than ours. But different managers/GMs and different levels of cheating. I'd be satisfied with a similar punishment but don't they already have a new GM since 2018 anyways? That wouldn't be fair to suspend the current one. Suspend the old one for a year. What will be interesting to see is if Cora knows of others and takes them down with him. It sounds like there are already 7-8 other teams that Astros personnel have gone on the record saying were doing similar things. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 14, 2020 12:53:35 GMT -6
It's Boston's 2nd offense...their punishment should be worse than ours. But different managers/GMs and different levels of cheating. I'd be satisfied with a similar punishment but don't they already have a new GM since 2018 anyways? That wouldn't be fair to suspend the current one. Suspend the old one for a year. What will be interesting to see is if Cora knows of others and takes them down with him. It sounds like there are already 7-8 other teams that Astros personnel have gone on the record saying were doing similar things. Cheating is cheating, and they cheated---got caught and sanctioned and warned---then cheated AGAIN the very next year. They should have the boom lowered on them. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 12:54:39 GMT -6
It's taken me a while to sort this out in my mind, but here goes: 1. Fiers- He broke "the code" of baseball silence and will be a pariah in MLB circles for the rest of his life. He's also a hypocrite for not standing up to the cheating when he was on the team that was doing it. I seriously doubt he'll be turning in his WS ring either. Regardless, it's not his fault the team cheated, though he was complicit with it at the time. And I don't buy his "I just did it for the younger players" crap. He had an axe to grind against the Astros and he stabbed them in the back with it. 2. Crane- He knew about it. Dumb guys don't get to be billionaires, and Crane isn't dumb. But because he is one of the 30 bosses of Manfred and he undoubtedly insulated himself from the day-to-day goings-on (no paper trail), he gets a free pass. Baseball itself is corrupt. Which is no surprise. Any business where money is involved on this kind of scale is corrupt by default. 3. Luhnow- He did know about it, his post-firing denial notwithstanding. He received the emails talking about it (as an aside, if you're going to frickin' cheat, how stupid can you be to leave an email record?). If by some bizarre twist he didn't know about it, then he should have been fired for not knowing what was going on. Luhnow is far from stupid. He knew what was going on which makes his tweet about "no knowledge" even more sickening. 4. Hinch- What a freaking moron. Just wow. You had enough moral fiber to attack inanimate monitors but not enough to confront grown men. And then you smugly denied any cheating on television. Adios. 5. The players- I don't know which ones used the system (other than Gattis) and which ones didn't, but since (apparently) not a single one had the guts to stand up to it you can consider them all complicit. How legitimate are Altuve's batting titles and MVP now? How legit are any of their stats? How good are they really, now that they won't have advanced notice of what pitch is coming? We'll soon find out. 6. The Championship- The report stated the cheating continued throughout the playoffs. IF THAT'S TRUE, it's tainted. No, I didn't believe they would nor do I think they should vacate the title. It would be impossible at this point to reconstruct, pitch by pitch or even game by game, how much or indeed if any cheating aided in a particular situation. The championship is legitimate, but it is tainted. 7. Other teams- If an unbiased investigative agency crawled up every MLB team's ass with a microscope and could magically convince those in the know to tell the truth I'd wager that EVERY ONE of them could be nailed for something and that probably a dozen or so did things just as egregious as the Astros. The sanctimonious screams of Yankee and Dodger fans sticks in my craw; I truly hope their teams are unblemished, but I'd bet my retirement account that they're not. However, you can't convict on innuendo or supposition, and absent proof we'll have to take the ridicule in stride. 8. The 2020 season- In light of Manfred's ban hammer, I'm going to bet a lot of teams curtail whatever it was they were doing. Consequently, we might see a more even playing field this year which means stats are going to be down all over MLB. You are going to see some pitchers have much better seasons while hitters will struggle more. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe the Dodgers or Yankees have more sophisticated systems (or maybe they don't) and aren't stupid enough to put anything down on paper or electronic media. I hope the Astros win the WS in 2020...legitimately. That's a good summary of it. Although I don't think the cheating actually helped them at all or else they would have stuck with it. If Altuve hadn't been so amazingly fantastic on the road in 2017, I might believe differently. At this point I mostly wish some of the players would stand up and say what really happened. Hinch and Luhnow made mistakes, but they shouldn't be taking on the whole firing squad by themselves. |
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 12:55:18 GMT -6
But different managers/GMs and different levels of cheating. I'd be satisfied with a similar punishment but don't they already have a new GM since 2018 anyways? That wouldn't be fair to suspend the current one. Suspend the old one for a year. What will be interesting to see is if Cora knows of others and takes them down with him. It sounds like there are already 7-8 other teams that Astros personnel have gone on the record saying were doing similar things. Cheating is cheating, and they cheated---got caught and sanctioned and warned---then cheated AGAIN the very next year. They should have the boom lowered on them. I want it. But I don't see it happening quite as extreme for them. Hope I'm wrong. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 14, 2020 12:56:20 GMT -6
Even during the 2018 postseason Cleveland was supposedly warning Boston about us. And do you remember the Astros employee that got taking pictures of the opposing duguout in the playoffs? Luhnow made some excuse about us looking for them cheating. And didn't that White Sox pitcher Farraquar (sp?) report something in 2017 with the banging? At the time, I think it was thought to be good old fashion run of the mill sign stealing that all teams employ. I don't remember hearing about the '17 situation with Farraquar. Would like to see a link to that, if you have it. When you think of it communicating of stolen signs banging on a garbage can lid. Something you would think you would see in a sitcom of "Get Smart". It reminds me of a dumb coach we used to play against his bunt sign was touching his belt and the steal sign was skin on skin. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:00:46 GMT -6
It's taken me a while to sort this out in my mind, but here goes: 3. Luhnow- He did know about it, his post-firing denial notwithstanding. He received the emails talking about it (as an aside, if you're going to frickin' cheat, how stupid can you be to leave an email record?). If by some bizarre twist he didn't know about it, then he should have been fired for not knowing what was going on. Luhnow is far from stupid. He knew what was going on which makes his tweet about "no knowledge" even more sickening. Very interesting. Do you have a link or a reference to that? From the COB press release, I gathered that it contradicts that. Just keeping an open mind. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Jan 14, 2020 13:31:00 GMT -6
It's taken me a while to sort this out in my mind, but here goes: 3. Luhnow- He did know about it, his post-firing denial notwithstanding. He received the emails talking about it (as an aside, if you're going to frickin' cheat, how stupid can you be to leave an email record?). If by some bizarre twist he didn't know about it, then he should have been fired for not knowing what was going on. Luhnow is far from stupid. He knew what was going on which makes his tweet about "no knowledge" even more sickening. Very interesting. Do you have a link or a reference to that? From the COB press release, I gathered that it contradicts that. Just keeping an open mind. 1. From Manfred's report: " Although Luhnow denies having any awareness that his replay review room staff was decoding and transmitting signs, there is both documentary (i.e., email) and testimonial (i.e., personal testimony) evidence that indicates Luhnow had some knowledge of those efforts, but he did not give it much attention."2. August, 2018- Oakland filed a complaint with commissioner's office about electronic sign stealing. 3. The Indians filed a complaint during the ALDS for the same thing. 4. The Red Sox removed an Astros employee who had a camera pointed at their dugout. 5. The August, 2017 email from Kevin Goldstein: "One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout. What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can't) do and report back your findings."If you still believe Luhnow was in the dark after being indicted by his emails, personal testimony, formal league complaints and the email of his own asst. GM, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Dude's guilty. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Jan 14, 2020 13:47:40 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 13:51:05 GMT -6
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 13:51:31 GMT -6
Burn it all down!!!!!!!
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Post by abregmanfan on Jan 14, 2020 13:59:06 GMT -6
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 14, 2020 14:01:41 GMT -6
It's taken me a while to sort this out in my mind, but here goes: 3. Luhnow- He did know about it, his post-firing denial notwithstanding. He received the emails talking about it (as an aside, if you're going to frickin' cheat, how stupid can you be to leave an email record?). If by some bizarre twist he didn't know about it, then he should have been fired for not knowing what was going on. Luhnow is far from stupid. He knew what was going on which makes his tweet about "no knowledge" even more sickening. Very interesting. Do you have a link or a reference to that? From the COB press release, I gathered that it contradicts that. Just keeping an open mind.LMAO |
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talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
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Post by talshill on Jan 14, 2020 14:02:07 GMT -6
Yes! And Manfred can be commissioner of the rubble. |
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Post by abregmanfan on Jan 14, 2020 14:08:21 GMT -6
I demand a full investigation into the Yankees and Dodgers cheating as quoted by Logan Morrison.
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 14, 2020 14:31:51 GMT -6
Just like Fiers, another really non relevant player coming out spilling the beans on other teams. Morrison has been around for awhile, just played apart of last season in AAA Scranton. I assume these are the players with nothing really to lose to blow this situation up bigger.
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Post by Saint on Jan 14, 2020 14:37:25 GMT -6
Just like Fiers, another really non relevant player coming out spilling the beans on other teams. Morrison has been around for awhile, just played apart of last season in AAA Scranton. I assume these are the players with nothing really to lose to blow this situation up bigger. Except he said that he didn't care. That if they're going to punish some they need to punish all. It was in defense of the Astros, imo. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 14, 2020 14:41:46 GMT -6
Just like Fiers, another really non relevant player coming out spilling the beans on other teams. Morrison has been around for awhile, just played apart of last season in AAA Scranton. I assume these are the players with nothing really to lose to blow this situation up bigger. Except he said that he didn't care. That if they're going to punish some they need to punish all. It was in defense of the Astros, imo. I think Marshall mentioned this, you can compare it to the current situation in politics in this country. Put some people in jail and turn you head the other way on the crime. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 14, 2020 15:00:18 GMT -6
At this point, I am reminded of Watergate. Who Knew about the cheating? How much did they know? When did they know it?
From what I can gather, Alex Cora orchestrated the whole thing. He devised the system that sent video from center field cameras to cameras near the dugout. Tben, signs were relayed to hitters regarding the upcoming pitch by ways which include banging on garbage cans. No doubt Beltran was instrumental in relaying signs. Both Cora and Beltran deserve suspensions with Beltran's being the longes of all, including those given Hinch and Luhnow. Boston should join us in being fined and losing draft picks. I will always believe Luhnow lied when he said he was in the dark. Crane is probably telling the truth,
Now, the important thing is how we handle the aftermath and recovery period. Care needs to be taken in hiring a good GM and manager. Go outside for the GM and hire a manager........if possible.....with ties to the Astros in the past.......Biggio or Ausmus.
What's done is done......we can't change it. Start to work repairing the damage.
PS: I hope the Red Sox get hammered and I'd love to see evidence pile up against the Yankees.
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 14, 2020 15:01:08 GMT -6
I agree with Catfish. The 1-year suspensions were a just sentence, but Hinch and Luhnow shouldn't have been fired. They weren't the instigators
Crane is dumb
What would you have done? |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 14, 2020 15:03:30 GMT -6
For anybody in here that has been the leader of a team, department, organization, etc. you know that the ups and downs are on you. You may not be the one doing it, but it's your people. I don't have a problem with the leaders being held accountable (especially since that's what Manfred warned the league he would do), but I think some of the players/instigators should be penalized as well, if it can be known who did what. It sounds like Crane didn't know it was going on and is legitimately upset by it, but he certainly has had a role in some of the recent negative attention the team has received. I will always believe that people of that amount of wealth have had to get their hands at least a little dirty at some point. Right or wrong, Crane owns the team and it's his to control. I feel worse for Hinch than Luhnow, but they're smart and capable. They'll find their way out of this. But, it was made clear they would be held responsible. If I'm in their shoes, I'm doing what it takes to make sure I don't get caught up in it. They either looked the other way (Hinch) and/or got lazy/didn't care enough (Luhnow). Hopefully Crane makes good choices on their replacements and we can all move on from this. I hope Beltran gets canned and Cora gets banned. Boston better have a damn similar punishment for their 2018 nonsense as well. It's Boston's 2nd offense...their punishment should be worse than ours. ***** Yes, this isn’t talked about enough with the media. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 14, 2020 15:07:11 GMT -6
I agree with Catfish. The 1-year suspensions were a just sentence, but Hinch and Luhnow shouldn't have been fired. They weren't the instigators
Crane is dumb
What would you have done? |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jan 14, 2020 15:16:19 GMT -6
What would you have done? With the PR issues this team has had the past couple seasons, some saving face by Crane was inevitable. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jan 14, 2020 15:26:44 GMT -6
What the Saints did with Sean Payton With the PR issues this team has had the past couple seasons, some saving face by Crane was inevitable. I realize that most fans feel differently, but that shit doesn't faze me Crane reminds me of SMU in the 80s voluntarily shutting down its football program for two years even though the penalty banned them for one. He's totally going overboard |
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Post by bannedfan on Jan 14, 2020 15:43:12 GMT -6
How did Julia Morales not hear the banging? I'd wager Julia hears banging all the time. I knew that was coming. I set myself up on that one. |
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