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Post by astrosdoug on May 4, 2018 10:37:16 GMT -6
Rondon is indeed a failed former closer. He has very good pitching peripherals in comparison with the rest of the bullpen, so I think that fact, combined with his experience with protecting slim leads in the 9th, makes him a candidate at least to close games for the Astros.
I agree with OlPapa that it's not essential to have a designated closer. If you've got 3-4 guys you know won't fall apart like Girl Scout cookies just because they are pitching in the 9th, you should feel free to use any of them in the 9th, based on rest and matchups.
I suppose if Hinch feels like he needs to have a designated closer, then Herrera is probably the best person available. If the Astros don't get him, then it's quite likely another AL contender like NYY will get him.
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Post by blcoach8 on May 4, 2018 11:14:49 GMT -6
I trust Rondon more than Harris
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Post by thomasj13 on May 4, 2018 11:32:15 GMT -6
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on May 4, 2018 11:50:26 GMT -6
To some extent, I think Hinch tries to use April and May as a time for experimenting with things so that by the time October comes around, he feels like he's constructed the lineup and roster and assigned relief pitching roles with the best data set possible. If that's his thinking, he would want to try various guys in the closer role (Devo, Rondon, Harris, Giles...) and see who sticks. If he hadn't put Harris into that position last night, the question might nag him throughout the season: Would Harris have made a better closer this year than [whoever is the closer]? A predictable consequence of the trial-and-error approach is that sometimes it's going to blow up in the Astros' face. I'm not saying Hinch's approach is the best one, but this might explain his rationale. On paper, Harris is about the most dependable relief pitcher (non-closer) that the Astros have had since Larry Andersen. That's all I'm trying to get to. I have to believe Hinch and the coaching staff know more than we do and have a plan for the season. And maybe I'm too nice to all of them since we finally won a championship, but when we have basically the same team (if not better) that did so well last year, we should give them time and support to get in gear. That they "know more than we do" is a given. However, that knowledge doesn't mean they are infallible. They still make poor choices, even with all of the information at their disposal. Also, re: Hinch Hate - Last year, he didn't get much hate. In fact, most of us were recommending him for MOY. The year before, though...only bearbryant loved Hinch. |
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Post by Saint on May 4, 2018 11:56:27 GMT -6
That's all I'm trying to get to. I have to believe Hinch and the coaching staff know more than we do and have a plan for the season. And maybe I'm too nice to all of them since we finally won a championship, but when we have basically the same team (if not better) that did so well last year, we should give them time and support to get in gear. That they "know more than we do" is a given. However, that knowledge doesn't mean they are infallible. They still make poor choices, even with all of the information at their disposal. Also, re: Hinch Hate - Last year, he didn't get much hate. In fact, most of us were recommending him for MOY. The year before, though...only bearbryant loved Hinch. We don't know if they're poor choices or not when we don't have the information they do and we don't know if things would have turned out differently. I don't have any majors issue with Hinch other than I think he overused some of the relievers last year when we didn't need to. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 4, 2018 13:13:41 GMT -6
Todd, I know you think we may be overly critical, but Hinch (yesterday), Gattis, Marisnick, etc. are all legitimate targets of criticism. Being upset with losing is as natural as being elated with winning.
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Post by bearbryant on May 4, 2018 13:16:47 GMT -6
That's all I'm trying to get to. I have to believe Hinch and the coaching staff know more than we do and have a plan for the season. And maybe I'm too nice to all of them since we finally won a championship, but when we have basically the same team (if not better) that did so well last year, we should give them time and support to get in gear. That they "know more than we do" is a given. However, that knowledge doesn't mean they are infallible. They still make poor choices, even with all of the information at their disposal. Also, re: Hinch Hate - Last year, he didn't get much hate. In fact, most of us were recommending him for MOY. The year before, though...only bearbryant loved Hinch.
2017 he didn't have any excuses with club ownership and the front office finally stepping up and bolstering the roster via the free-agent pool. Last season would've been all on AJ if he couldn't bring home a championship |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 4, 2018 13:21:29 GMT -6
Hinch did a masterful job last year despite the Hot Potato act the relievers played regarding finishing games. Mongo Giles didn’t give any f—ks according to his little t-shirt. It’s a wonder how Todd can’t believe why he pile on Kenny G the way we do. I take it back. No one literally beats himself up more than Giles.
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Post by bearbryant on May 4, 2018 13:43:23 GMT -6
Where did this bitter Sherwin come from? We win a WS and all of a sudden you seem very negative! I guess I've been gone from the board too long. Right now Devo, Peacock and/Or McHugh could be your multiple inning relievers to close out games, until a mentally fit shutdown closer is on the team. |
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Post by blcoach8 on May 4, 2018 13:58:24 GMT -6
After the collapse of the pen in last year's playoffs, all they did was add Smith and Rondon. I wonder how hard they went after Wade Davis or other relievers. We should not be surprised at how bad the pen has been. When you hve mostly the same cast of characters, you can expect the same performance. Harris choked in 2015 and last year. Giles tanked last year and is still inconsistent. We still have Sipp because they don't want to eat his salary. If not for Peacock, Devenski, and McHugh, the pen would be a total disaster.
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marshall
Veteran
21st Century Luddite
Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
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Post by marshall on May 4, 2018 15:14:20 GMT -6
Hindsight is always great after the game. Several of us said that before Harris came in, so it isn't a case of hindsight. I understand AJs strategy, but I don't agree. But he's the major league manager. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 4, 2018 15:24:32 GMT -6
After the collapse of the pen in last year's playoffs, all they did was add Smith and Rondon. I wonder how hard they went after Wade Davis or other relievers. We should not be surprised at how bad the pen has been. When you hve mostly the same cast of characters, you can expect the same performance. Harris choked in 2015 and last year. Giles tanked last year and is still inconsistent. We still have Sipp because they don't want to eat his salary. If not for Peacock, Devenski, and McHugh, the pen would be a total disaster. I can’t say I disagree with any of this. Outside of Peacock and Morton, could anyone say that there was any pitcher reliable in that bullpen during the postseason? The bullpen was always a question mark coming into this season. Rondón was sketchy, but Smith has been a very unpleasant surprise so far. I don’t think anyone saw that coming. |
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Post by Saint on May 4, 2018 16:15:54 GMT -6
Todd, I know you think we may be overly critical, but Hinch (yesterday), Gattis, Marisnick, etc. are all legitimate targets of criticism. Being upset with losing is as natural as being elated with winning. I don't have an issue with criticism. I think it's just the level that it seems to be at considering how good they all made the team last year. Even if you think some of the players weren't as productive or valuable as the stats show, there is also some value to team chemistry and morale. And blowing up key players (even if not super valuable on the field) can have a pretty big effect on the team. If we were a bad team I would say screw it and do it. But we're not. So I'd hate to see us rush to judgement over a short period of time. I do fully admit that I've gotten softer on the team since they finally brought home a championship last year. I know I stopped posting for a few years, but the postseason last year wrecked me. |
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Post by bearbryant on May 4, 2018 19:29:49 GMT -6
I know I stopped posting for a few years, but the postseason last year wrecked me. |
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Post by bearbryant on May 4, 2018 19:36:04 GMT -6
It’s a wonder how Todd can’t believe why he pile on Kenny G the way we do. |
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Post by paastrosfan on May 4, 2018 19:59:11 GMT -6
You hit the nail on the head with the famous hind sighter on the board, if Devo pitched the ninth and blew the lead, the statement would have been why was Devo going two. Hinch was in a no-win situation. Anyone who has been on the board and the old board for any time at all knows how I feel about replacing a relief pitcher who has just dominated in the 8th inning. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. While it was not the case in this game, more often than not, it is the so-called “closer” who is brought in to pitch the 9th inning and get credited with “saving” the game. The idea that a so-called “closer” MUST pitch the ninth inning and get his “save” is bullshit. The “closer” getting his “save” is not the most important thing. The team getting the win is the most important thing. My disdain for a manager replacing a reliever who has just dominated the 8th inning was born in the 1986 season. In June 1986 I attended a game at the Astrodome between the Mets and Astros. The Astros led that game going into the top of the 9th and Lanier brought in Dave Smith. Smith’s out pitch was a forkball that, when he was on, was deadly, but when he was off, it got hammered. Lenny Dykstra homered off Dave Smith in the 9th inning of that game to put the Mets ahead. Fortunately Craig Reynolds hit a walkoff homer in the bottom of the 9th to win the game for Houston. Fast forward to game 3 of the 1986 NLCS. Lanier brings in Charley Kerfield to pitch the 8th and he was dealing. Pitched a 3 up 3 down 8th. The Astros took a one run lead into the 9th and Lanier brought in Smith to “save” the game. Unfortunately, Smith’s forkball was not forking that day. Dykstra came to bat with one out and Wally Backman on base and, just as he had in the game back in June, he hit a two-run home run to give the Mets the win. Ever since that day I have hated the idea that a team must have a “closer” and that “closer” must be brought in to pitch the 9th inning and “save” the game. Every pitcher has an off day from time to time....some more often than others. If you have just watched a pitcher blow the opposition away in the 8th inning, why take him out in the 9th and run the risk that his replacement will have a off day and lose the game? If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. I still believe that was the turning point of the ‘86 NLCS. Had Houston won that game and the series eventually gone to a 7th game, the Mets were toast. Mike Scott would have started game 7 for Houston. The Mets couldn’t beat Mike Scott and they knew it. Had Hinch stuck with Devinski to start the 9th inning, I would not have been critical of him for doing so. Thank God it wasn’t a playoff game AJ gave away this time. But go back to game 6 in the NLCS, bringing Knepper out for the ninth. He didn't finish it off. Or should I say he did for the 86 season. |
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Post by paastrosfan on May 4, 2018 20:18:17 GMT -6
You hit the nail on the head with the famous hind sighter on the board, if Devo pitched the ninth and blew the lead, the statement would have been why was Devo going two. Hinch was in a no-win situation. Common sense says Devo stays in the game. Those of us who know the game knew that it isn't smart to pull a reliever who has thrown a minimum nunber of pitches to bring in a guy cold out of the pen who may or may not have it. I guess you would have brought Giles in again. I don't wait until the game is over to post to act like a genius, post during the game and make a call, then maybe I could take you serious. |
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Post by Saint on May 4, 2018 20:21:05 GMT -6
I know I stopped posting for a few years, but the postseason last year wrecked me. I can imagine. |
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Post by olpapa on May 4, 2018 21:14:25 GMT -6
j“But go back to game 6 in the NLCS, bringing Knepper out for the ninth. He didn't finish it off. Or should I say he did for the 86 season.”
Painful memories. Of course the situations in games 3 and 6 were different. In game 3 Lanier pulled a relief pitcher who had just pitched one inning and dominated the Mets in that 8th inning. I can’t blame Lanier for bringing Knepper back out to start the 9th inning in game 6, considering he had been pitching well and the team’s closer had not been exactly lights-out. When he did bring Smith in he blew that “save” too.
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Post by paastrosfan on May 4, 2018 22:26:29 GMT -6
j“But go back to game 6 in the NLCS, bringing Knepper out for the ninth. He didn't finish it off. Or should I say he did for the 86 season.” Painful memories. Of course the situations in games 3 and 6 were different. In game 3 Lanier pulled a relief pitcher who had just pitched one inning and dominated the Mets in that 8th inning. I can’t blame Lanier for bringing Knepper back out to start the 9th inning in game 6, considering he had been pitching well and the team’s closer had not been exactly lights-out. When he did bring Smith in he blew that “save” too. I meant no disrespect to your post about your opinion about AJ's decision on the 9th. If we all thought the same way this would be a dull place. I always respected your knowledge about the game. But just like the other board crotch comes on after a game and posts the results and think he is a genius. |
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Post by olpapa on May 5, 2018 6:56:07 GMT -6
j“But go back to game 6 in the NLCS, bringing Knepper out for the ninth. He didn't finish it off. Or should I say he did for the 86 season.” Painful memories. Of course the situations in games 3 and 6 were different. In game 3 Lanier pulled a relief pitcher who had just pitched one inning and dominated the Mets in that 8th inning. I can’t blame Lanier for bringing Knepper back out to start the 9th inning in game 6, considering he had been pitching well and the team’s closer had not been exactly lights-out. When he did bring Smith in he blew that “save” too. I meant no disrespect to your post about your opinion about AJ's decision on the 9th. If we all thought the same way this would be a dull place. I always respected your knowledge about the game. But just like the other board crotch comes on after a game and posts the results and think he is a genius. No offense taken Pa. |
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