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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 12:10:34 GMT -6
So I think most people will jump to Verlander as their choice, but, if you look at all-around contributions, these guys are very very close. In fact, I know a lot of people don't like WAR as a stat, but they actually, as of today, identical career WARs at 71.9. That easily puts them both well within Hall of Fame range.
Verlander
226-129 (.632)
3.33 ERA (129 ERA+)
3013 K (9.1 K/9)
1.134 WHIP
3.41 FIP
8x All-Star
2x CY
1x MVP
1x ROY
1x ALCS MVP
Postseason: 14-11 3.40 ERA (5.68 ERA in the World Series)
Career OPS: .200
Greinke
206-123 (.626)
3.35 ERA (126 ERA+)
2640 K (8.2 K/9)
1.158 WHIP
3.37 FIP
6x All-Star
1x CY
6x Gold Glove
2x Silver Slugger
Postseason: 3-6 4.21 ERA (2.45 ERA in the World Series)
Career OPS: .600
So basically if you're building an AL team with no DH, Verlander probably slightly edges Greinke. But, if you're putting together an NL with no DH, Greinke might have a case over JV. It's pretty interesting how similar a lot of their stats are.
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Post by abregmanfan on Aug 13, 2020 14:10:36 GMT -6
I would rather have Verlander, but I really respect Greinke. What jumps out to me the most is the difference in Era in the World Series.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Aug 13, 2020 14:19:53 GMT -6
Based on "feel", I'll take JV any day. When Grienke is pitching, I always feel like he's about to turn into Cy Sneed. He rarely does, but it always seems like he's about to. With JV, you can see the dominance and confidence.
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 14:41:51 GMT -6
Verlander without a doubt. I like Greinke but Justin is more likely to dominate and get a key strikeout when needed.
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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 14:52:43 GMT -6
I don't disagree with any of that on the surface, but it IS something that Greinke has the slightly better FIP (Fielding-independent Pitching) than Verlander and has a better walk rate.
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 13, 2020 14:56:22 GMT -6
If this were the NL, Greinke is clearly better because of the hitting.
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 13, 2020 14:58:15 GMT -6
This is why I like Verlander more. It’s possibly the best pitching performance I ever watched.
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Post by bearbryant on Aug 13, 2020 15:21:31 GMT -6
I would rather have Verlander, but I really respect Greinke. What jumps out to me the most is the difference in Era in the World Series. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 15:26:33 GMT -6
I don't disagree with any of that on the surface, but it IS something that Greinke has the slightly better FIP (Fielding-independent Pitching) than Verlander and has a better walk rate. Does Greinke take less time lacing his shoes? |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 15:27:13 GMT -6
I would rather have Verlander, but I really respect Greinke. What jumps out to me the most is the difference in Era in the World Series. And Hinch blew game 7 when he took him out of the game. |
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Post by bearbryant on Aug 13, 2020 15:34:31 GMT -6
Greinke made the Nats look silly with his offspeed while Verlander made Kurt Suzuki look like an MVP candidate And Hinch blew game 7 when he took him out of the game. Sometimes I think AJ did that cause he got his feelers hurt when Morton got all the credit for Game 7 in 2017 so he wanted credit last year with some baffling bullpen moves. Classic over-managing
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Post by bearbryant on Aug 13, 2020 15:43:04 GMT -6
That being said, our bats did a terrible job in 4 home games against Scherzer and Strasburg They didn't push enough runs across to get us a W regardless of what the manager did
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 15:49:43 GMT -6
And Hinch blew game 7 when he took him out of the game. Sometimes I think AJ did that cause he got his feelers hurt when Morton got all the credit for Game 7 in 2017 so he wanted credit last year with some baffling bullpen moves. Classic over-managing
Amen to that. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 15:50:36 GMT -6
That being said, our bats did a terrible job in 4 home games against Scherzer and Strasburg They didn't push enough runs across to get us a W regardless of what the manager did
I think that was the only time the home team lost all seven games of the WS. |
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Post by abregmanfan on Aug 13, 2020 15:56:31 GMT -6
Based on "feel", I'll take JV any day. When Grienke is pitching, I always feel like he's about to turn into Cy Sneed. He rarely does, but it always seems like he's about to. With JV, you can see the dominance and confidence. There is no doubt that JV has the hotter wife. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Aug 13, 2020 16:36:09 GMT -6
Based on "feel", I'll take JV any day. When Grienke is pitching, I always feel like he's about to turn into Cy Sneed. He rarely does, but it always seems like he's about to. With JV, you can see the dominance and confidence. There is no doubt that JV has the hotter wife. And JV isn't autistic. |
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Post by batman007 on Aug 13, 2020 19:07:31 GMT -6
It's really unfair to compare their batting stats when one has 10x more plate appearances than the other...
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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 19:59:54 GMT -6
I don't disagree with any of that on the surface, but it IS something that Greinke has the slightly better FIP (Fielding-independent Pitching) than Verlander and has a better walk rate. Does Greinke take less time lacing his shoes? Is that relevant? I guess we can talk about politics instead of baseball.... |
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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 20:01:34 GMT -6
It's really unfair to compare their batting stats when one has 10x more plate appearances than the other... Well, I think it's safe to say that Greinke is the better all-around athlete. JV might hit better with more plate appearances, but there is no reason to believe he would be as good. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 13, 2020 20:06:08 GMT -6
And Hinch blew game 7 when he took him out of the game. Sometimes I think AJ did that cause he got his feelers hurt when Morton got all the credit for Game 7 in 2017 so he wanted credit last year with some baffling bullpen moves. Classic over-managing
That theory suggests he cares more about egos than winning. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 13, 2020 20:10:02 GMT -6
That being said, our bats did a terrible job in 4 home games against Scherzer and Strasburg They didn't push enough runs across to get us a W regardless of what the manager did
Last season’s offense was like a more inconsistent version of ‘98. They would obliterate bad pitching and look helpless against great pitching. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 20:14:02 GMT -6
Does Greinke take less time lacing his shoes? Is that relevant? I guess we can talk about politics instead of baseball.... It is as relevant as some of the other crap you mentioned. No politics mentioned there, but, right now, politics is more important than baseball when the future of our country is on the line. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 20:15:24 GMT -6
It's really unfair to compare their batting stats when one has 10x more plate appearances than the other... Well, I think it's safe to say that Greinke is the better all-around athlete. JV might hit better with more plate appearances, but there is no reason to believe he would be as good. Verlander is the more dominant pitcher. Wbo is the better athlete is not important . |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 20:16:23 GMT -6
That being said, our bats did a terrible job in 4 home games against Scherzer and Strasburg They didn't push enough runs across to get us a W regardless of what the manager did
Last season’s offense was like a more inconsistent version of ‘98. They would obliterate bad pitching and look helpless against great pitching. Hinch had his faults but he is a better manager than Dusty, especially for the roster we have now. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 20:24:48 GMT -6
Well, I think it's safe to say that Greinke is the better all-around athlete. JV might hit better with more plate appearances, but there is no reason to believe he would be as good. Verlander is the more dominant pitcher. Wbo is the better athlete is not important . To you. The whole point of discussions is to get other points of view. Relax. |
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Post by abregmanfan on Aug 13, 2020 20:31:10 GMT -6
Verlander is the more dominant pitcher. Wbo is the better athlete is not important . To you. The whole point of discussions is to get other points of view. Relax. If I had to win 1 game, Jv is my choice. If I had to win 20 games, Jv is my choice. I am higher on Greinke than most, but Jv is just the freaking man! |
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Post by Saint on Aug 13, 2020 20:40:14 GMT -6
To you. The whole point of discussions is to get other points of view. Relax. If I had to win 1 game, Jv is my choice. If I had to win 20 games, Jv is my choice. I am higher on Greinke than most, but Jv is just the freaking man! For one game I think I'd go with JV also (at least if they were both healthy in their current forms). In their prime it's disgustingly close. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 22:19:17 GMT -6
Verlander is the more dominant pitcher. Wbo is the better athlete is not important . To you. The whole point of discussions is to get other points of view. Relax. I agree. I just happen to think that numbers never tell the whole story. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 13, 2020 22:21:24 GMT -6
If I had to win 1 game, Jv is my choice. If I had to win 20 games, Jv is my choice. I am higher on Greinke than most, but Jv is just the freaking man! For one game I think I'd go with JV also (at least if they were both healthy in their current forms). In their prime it's disgustingly close. I would definitely take JV over Greinke and most other pitchers if I had to win one game. On that note, who do you guys think is the most over-rated starting pitcher in the game? I vote for Kershaw. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 14, 2020 5:12:07 GMT -6
For one game I think I'd go with JV also (at least if they were both healthy in their current forms). In their prime it's disgustingly close. I would definitely take JV over Greinke and most other pitchers if I had to win one game. On that note, who do you guys think is the most over-rated starting pitcher in the game? I vote for Kershaw. I think Kershaw is a HoFer already, but, unfortunately for him, will always be partially remembered for his struggles in the postseason. He's retired now, but I've thought CC Sabathia was overrated for a long long time. He had a very good prime, but he was mostly only an average or even below-average pitcher for the majority of his career. |
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