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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 20, 2021 16:16:27 GMT -6
Ten years in the bigs.
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Post by blcoach8 on Jul 20, 2021 16:56:01 GMT -6
Happy Anniversary........now, get your BA back up.
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Post by abregmanfan on Jul 20, 2021 18:54:31 GMT -6
What a great 10 years it has been. I can not name another player in our history that has done as much in their first 10 years as Jose. Mvp! |
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Post by abregmanfan on Jul 20, 2021 18:55:19 GMT -6
Happy Anniversary........now, get your BA back up. Best Astro in history. Followed closely by Biggio and Bagwell. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 20, 2021 19:55:28 GMT -6
Happy Anniversary........now, get your BA back up. Best Astro in history. Followed closely by Biggio and Bagwell. Biggio over Bagwell? Pssh. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jul 21, 2021 8:30:40 GMT -6
Happy Anniversary........now, get your BA back up. Best Astro in history. Followed closely by Biggio and Bagwell. Sorry, he is still behind Biggio and in a dead heat with Bagwell. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jul 21, 2021 8:31:52 GMT -6
Best Astro in history. Followed closely by Biggio and Bagwell. Biggio over Bagwell? Pssh. Biggio over ALL of them. The guy is in the HOF, had over 3,000 hits, and was an all-star at multiple positions. Nobody else has done that. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jul 21, 2021 8:38:03 GMT -6
What happened to your theory that a player can't receive all these accolades if he didn't lead his team to a ring? biggio won exactly jack shit in his career.
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Jul 21, 2021 8:47:46 GMT -6
I'll just leave this here ...
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Post by blcoach8 on Jul 21, 2021 8:49:32 GMT -6
Maybe you need to a little research..........He led them to the WS in 2005. He also never played for an owner who would spend money to get players needed to make a run at a title. I wish we could have seen what Biggio, Bagwell, and that group could have done with Crane as the owner instead of a miser like Drayton McLane. Altuve has had a better overall group of players on his teams. Biggio had no Springers, Correas, Verlanders, etc. I have never said Jose isn't a great player, but, I'm not ready to name him the greatest Astro of all time. Opposing pitchers in the post season pitched around Biggio and Bagwell to get to the rest of the lineup which led to both of them having bad numbers because they swung at pitches they should have taken because they knew if they didn't drive in runs the Astros wouldn't score. Jose has never had to carry the load by himself in the last few years. In the beginning, he had nothing to go with him and the Astros strung 100 loss seasons together. Of course, those pitiful teams led to us getting draft picks to take Springer, Correa, Bregman, McCullers, and Tucker.
Jose will probably finish being better overall, but, he hasn't earned it yet.
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 8:49:52 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best all-around player this organization has ever had, followed by Biggio. But, they never did much in the postseason outside of a couple series' in the 2000's. Altuve has to be considered right with them already when you factor in postseason performance. Altuve is the greatest postseason player we've ever had, and very likely ever will. And yes, he has been a better player than Springer if you compare their entire postseason careers. (Although Springer peaked at the right time!)
Altuve needs another 5-6 good years and he should be a lock for the HoF even with the 2017 stain.
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 21, 2021 8:54:32 GMT -6
Biggio over Bagwell? Pssh. Biggio over ALL of them. The guy is in the HOF, had over 3,000 hits, and was an all-star at multiple positions. Nobody else has done that. Bagwell was a more elite player, he was better at his position, and he didn’t have the luxury of milking extra seasons to add to his resume like Biggio did. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jul 21, 2021 8:55:17 GMT -6
Biggio over ALL of them. The guy is in the HOF, had over 3,000 hits, and was an all-star at multiple positions. Nobody else has done that. Bagwell was a more elite player, he was better at his position, and he didn’t have the luxury of milking extra seasons to add to his resume like Biggio did. And he didn't do that embarrassing retirement tour. |
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 8:56:00 GMT -6
Maybe you need to a little research..........He led them to the WS in 2005. He also never played for an owner who would spend money to get players needed to make a run at a title. I wish we could have seen what Biggio, Bagwell, and that group could have done with Crane as the owner instead of a miser like Drayton McLane. Altuve has had a better overall group of players on his teams. Biggio had no Springers, Correas, Verlanders, etc. I have never said Jose isn't a great player, but, I'm not ready to name him the greatest Astro of all time. Opposing pitchers in the post season pitched around Biggio and Bagwell to get to the rest of the lineup which led to both of them having bad numbers because they swung at pitches they should have taken because they knew if they didn't drive in runs the Astros wouldn't score. Jose has never had to carry the load by himself in the last few years. In the beginning, he had nothing to go with him and the Astros strung 100 loss seasons together. Of course, those pitiful teams led to us getting draft picks to take Springer, Correa, Bregman, McCullers, and Tucker. Jose will probably finish being better overall, but, he hasn't earned it yet. 1998 team led by Biggio and Bagwell was pretty d*mn stacked. Hell, even Sean Berry was an offensive force that year. That team went into the postseason with very high expectations after acquiring Randy Johnson and they completely flopped. Biggio and Bagwell among them despite have the previous year for experience and a very good supporting cast around them. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 21, 2021 8:56:38 GMT -6
Bagwell was a more elite player, he was better at his position, and he didn’t have the luxury of milking extra seasons to add to his resume like Biggio did. And he didn't do that embarrassing retirement tour. There’s a reason why he didn’t get into the HOF on the first try despite the hits. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jul 21, 2021 9:03:33 GMT -6
Maybe you need to a little research..........He led them to the WS in 2005. He also never played for an owner who would spend money to get players needed to make a run at a title. I wish we could have seen what Biggio, Bagwell, and that group could have done with Crane as the owner instead of a miser like Drayton McLane. Altuve has had a better overall group of players on his teams. Biggio had no Springers, Correas, Verlanders, etc. I have never said Jose isn't a great player, but, I'm not ready to name him the greatest Astro of all time. Opposing pitchers in the post season pitched around Biggio and Bagwell to get to the rest of the lineup which led to both of them having bad numbers because they swung at pitches they should have taken because they knew if they didn't drive in runs the Astros wouldn't score. Jose has never had to carry the load by himself in the last few years. In the beginning, he had nothing to go with him and the Astros strung 100 loss seasons together. Of course, those pitiful teams led to us getting draft picks to take Springer, Correa, Bregman, McCullers, and Tucker. Jose will probably finish being better overall, but, he hasn't earned it yet. Remind us, Corch...what was the final score in those WS games Biggio played in. |
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 9:04:45 GMT -6
And he didn't do that embarrassing retirement tour. There’s a reason why he didn’t get into the HOF on the first try despite the hits. What do you think that reason is? |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 21, 2021 9:10:45 GMT -6
There’s a reason why he didn’t get into the HOF on the first try despite the hits. What do you think that reason is? I think it was because people thought he stretched out his career longer than he should have to get to certain milestones while not being a dominating player. I can’t think of many things in which Biggio was elite at besides hustle and speed. He had pop but others had more. He was a burner, but there were faster people. He played good defense, but he was no Alomar. The story of Biggio was that he was great but not fantastic. In a way, he shares that with Berkman even though he was an elite hitter for a switch hitter. |
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 9:27:56 GMT -6
What do you think that reason is? I think it was because people thought he stretched out his career longer than he should have to get to certain milestones while not being a dominating player. I can’t think of many things in which Biggio was elite at besides hustle and speed. He had pop but others had more. He was a burner, but there were faster people. He played good defense, but he was no Alomar. The story of Biggio was that he was great but not fantastic. In a way, he shares that with Berkman even though he was an elite hitter for a switch hitter. I think it was his lack of postseason success (or memorable moments) and the fact that the Astros were a nobody team that nobody cared about outside of Houston. That's what Altuve has in his favor. Not only has he had success in the postseason, but he has been a key figure in some big moments (his 2019 ALCS walk-off, his 3-HR game against Sale, etc.). And, thanks to him, CC, and Springer along with both the success and stigma, everybody knows Houston now. If Biggio had been on a more popular team or had actually done something in the postseason that people remember, he would have been a 1st ballot HoFer with his numbers. The east coast will always remember Altuve with his big moments against NYC. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 21, 2021 9:34:08 GMT -6
I think it was because people thought he stretched out his career longer than he should have to get to certain milestones while not being a dominating player. I can’t think of many things in which Biggio was elite at besides hustle and speed. He had pop but others had more. He was a burner, but there were faster people. He played good defense, but he was no Alomar. The story of Biggio was that he was great but not fantastic. In a way, he shares that with Berkman even though he was an elite hitter for a switch hitter. I think it was his lack of postseason success (or memorable moments) and the fact that the Astros were a nobody team that nobody cared about outside of Houston. That's what Altuve has in his favor. Not only has he had success in the postseason, but he has been a key figure in some big moments (his 2019 ALCS walk-off, his 3-HR game against Sale, etc.). And, thanks to him, CC, and Springer along with both the success and stigma, everybody knows Houston now. If Biggio had been on a more popular team or had actually done something in the postseason that people remember, he would have been a 1st ballot HoFer with his numbers. The east coast will always remember Altuve with his big moments against NYC. Altuve is much better, no doubt. That all goes to my point about Biggio. He just didn’t stand out when you look at the usual “all-time greats” that they have in the HOF. Fred McGriff never made it, but he was never a guy a pitcher in the postseason wanted to face with RISP. He also basically had 500 homers. |
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 9:51:21 GMT -6
I think it was his lack of postseason success (or memorable moments) and the fact that the Astros were a nobody team that nobody cared about outside of Houston. That's what Altuve has in his favor. Not only has he had success in the postseason, but he has been a key figure in some big moments (his 2019 ALCS walk-off, his 3-HR game against Sale, etc.). And, thanks to him, CC, and Springer along with both the success and stigma, everybody knows Houston now. If Biggio had been on a more popular team or had actually done something in the postseason that people remember, he would have been a 1st ballot HoFer with his numbers. The east coast will always remember Altuve with his big moments against NYC. Altuve is much better, no doubt. That all goes to my point about Biggio. He just didn’t stand out when you look at the usual “all-time greats” that they have in the HOF. Fred McGriff never made it, but he was never a guy a pitcher in the postseason wanted to face with RISP. He also basically had 500 homers. I do consider Biggio an all-time great due to his flexibility. I can't think of any other player that played 3 substantially different positions for as long as he played them. It's not some LFer or C moving to 1B, or a SS moving to 3B. An all-star catcher that moved to 2B to become an AS/GG 2B, and then to being an everyday CFer (albeit with mixed results) all while acquiring 3000+ hits? I think we can safely say that we'll never see anything like that again. And I think people forget how good he was during his prime just because he wasn't hitting 30+ HRs a year during the steroid era. From 1991 until he got hurt in 2000, he was a .299/.391/.451 (129 OPS+) hitter. He hit doubles and stole bases and did whatever it took to get on base and score 110 runs a season. If a Yankee or Red Sox or Dodger or Cubs player had done that back then, they'd be a 1st ballot HoFer and would be advertising for Gatorade. |
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Post by bearbryant on Jul 21, 2021 12:38:51 GMT -6
Most would disagree about Biggio, but stretching out his career to 20 seasons is the reason he's in the HOF. The voters like longevity, and even if they don't care for someone like Harold Baines, there's a veterans committee to get Baines in just in case his 20 seasons in MLB isn't appreciated
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 12:44:36 GMT -6
I was totally fine with him staying on to get 3000 hits. Besides, he was still a solid-good player until the last two seasons and even his 2nd to last season wasn't completely horrible when you factor in solid defense and a pretty low salary. It was really just his last season that was really bad.
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 13:37:09 GMT -6
I look at it like this:
Player A: 3000+ Hits 250+ HR 300+ SB 115 OPS+ 71.3 WAR
Player B: 3000+ Hits 250+ HR 400+ SB 112 OPS+ 65.4 WAR
Each player played 20 seasons, but Player A made it on the 1st ballot. Player B made it on the 3rd.
Was Player A that much better than Player B? Only in regards to postseason success and the fact that he played on a big market popular team.
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 13:40:14 GMT -6
Looking at how he is going, I'd like to see Altuve reach the following:
300 HR
300 SB
3000 Hits
.300 AVG
The only player to do that was Willie Mays.
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Post by bearbryant on Jul 21, 2021 13:58:51 GMT -6
I bet some still won't be satisfied
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 14:10:16 GMT -6
I bet some still won't be satisfied You mean voters? |
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Post by bearbryant on Jul 21, 2021 14:22:51 GMT -6
I bet some still won't be satisfied You mean voters? |
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Post by Saint on Jul 21, 2021 14:33:12 GMT -6
Even for fans, it's not a realistic expectation. The longer someone plays, the more his career average declines. Just the way it is. Mays being the only player who's attained those milestones underpins that fact I can dream. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Jul 21, 2021 15:25:15 GMT -6
Besides the reasons Todd and I listed, does anyone else know why Biggio got shafted from being a first-ballot HOFer?
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