talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 1,115
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Post by talshill on Sept 8, 2021 18:52:09 GMT -6
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 9, 2021 8:11:13 GMT -6
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talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 1,115
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Post by talshill on Sept 9, 2021 9:50:51 GMT -6
Which is my point. What's BS is his inability to go past 5. He's on a first-place team, making millions and he's complaining about "me". Not the kind of guy you want. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Sept 9, 2021 9:52:31 GMT -6
Which is my point. What's BS is his inability to go past 5. He's on a first-place team, making millions and he's complaining about "me". Not the kind of guy you want. When the Astros are in position to do so, he should be demoted to long inning relief... |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 9, 2021 11:07:46 GMT -6
Which is my point. What's BS is his inability to go past 5. He's on a first-place team, making millions and he's complaining about "me". Not the kind of guy you want. When the Astros are in position to do so, he should be demoted to long inning relief... ***** And. if he is unhappy, who gives a damn. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 11:10:11 GMT -6
On the plus side, he officially moved into the slightly-better-than-average range with his 101 ERA+...
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 11:45:02 GMT -6
On the plus side, he officially moved into the slightly-better-than-average range with his 101 ERA+... And that is why people hate sabermetrics. You can somehow find a metric that says this shitty pitcher is "better than average" when he undeniably sucks outing after outing, so much so that even Dusty Baker's dumb ass realizes it. |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 9, 2021 12:23:44 GMT -6
Which is my point. What's BS is his inability to go past 5. He's on a first-place team, making millions and he's complaining about "me". Not the kind of guy you want. Yes, he's making millions but $9MM this year and $8MM next year ... which really isn't a big salary for a FA pitcher. Yeah, you expect to get six or more from your starter but if you get 5 good innings, you can live with it. To me what's BS is that he's complaining about getting pulled after 5. Shut up and pitch. So we're pretty much on the same page, yeah? |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 12:42:17 GMT -6
On the plus side, he officially moved into the slightly-better-than-average range with his 101 ERA+... And that is why people hate sabermetrics. You can somehow find a metric that says this shitty pitcher is "better than average" when he undeniably sucks outing after outing, so much so that even Dusty Baker's dumb ass realizes it. Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 13:11:57 GMT -6
And that is why people hate sabermetrics. You can somehow find a metric that says this shitty pitcher is "better than average" when he undeniably sucks outing after outing, so much so that even Dusty Baker's dumb ass realizes it. Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. When they "spread him out", he had an 18.0 ERA the third time through a lineup. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 9, 2021 14:00:16 GMT -6
And that is why people hate sabermetrics. You can somehow find a metric that says this shitty pitcher is "better than average" when he undeniably sucks outing after outing, so much so that even Dusty Baker's dumb ass realizes it. Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. His numbers show he is very good the first time through the lineup, pretty good the second time, and then starts getting shelled the third time through the order. He has shown start after start that five innings or around 80 pitches is his max He gets exceeding worse after that. If Odorizzi wants to be trusted to stay in games after the 5th inning, he needs to prove he deserves it. He has shown just the opposite. Dusty did exactly what he should have done.....remove him. That mouthing off in the post-game was nothing but trying to make more excuses. He even said if we had lost the game that he would be blamed for only lasting five innings. He needs to shut the hell up and do his job. He has shown to be mediocre at best and has not earned any confidence from Dusty that he can be relied on to go past five innings. For Click to try to cover up for Odorizzi's bad attitude makes him look bad. Saying this little fit showed Odorizzi to be a competitor was bullshit. What was worse was Click saying we needed guys like that. When Greinke returns, I'd give Odorizzi duty as a long reliever or mop up man. If he wants to pitch over five innings and be counted on, let him prove he can do the job instead of bitching about being pulled. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 14:09:18 GMT -6
Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. When they "spread him out", he had an 18.0 ERA the third time through a lineup. So does that mean we pay him as much as we are to never go through a third time? 66 pitches over 5 IP is great. I think they need to start pushing him further on games like that, but keep a short leash. If he puts a couple guys on base, yank him. Treat him with kid gloves like we did with Lance before this year, but start at least letting him try a little bit further. Or move him to the bullpen and be done with it. But having a starter for only 4-5 innings is wasteful. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 14:12:04 GMT -6
Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. His numbers show he is very good the first time through the lineup, pretty good the second time, and then starts getting shelled the third time through the order. He has shown start after start that five innings or around 80 pitches is his max He gets exceeding worse after that. If Odorizzi wants to be trusted to stay in games after the 5th inning, he needs to prove he deserves it. He has shown just the opposite. Dusty did exactly what he should have done.....remove him. That mouthing off in the post-game was nothing but trying to make more excuses. He even said if we had lost the game that he would be blamed for only lasting five innings. He needs to shut the hell up and do his job. He has shown to be mediocre at best and has not earned any confidence from Dusty that he can be relied on to go past five innings. For Click to try to cover up for Odorizzi's bad attitude makes him look bad. Saying this little fit showed Odorizzi to be a competitor was bullshit. What was worse was Click saying we needed guys like that. When Greinke returns, I'd give Odorizzi duty as a long reliever or mop up man. If he wants to pitch over five innings and be counted on, let him prove he can do the job instead of bitching about being pulled. Yeah that's all known. I don't disagree with the numbers. I'm just saying that I think there are situations (like last game) where we can give him a little bit more of a chance to see how he does and maybe save some innings from the bullpen. If we keep pulling every time, he'll never show if he can or not and we're having to go to our bullpen early every 5th start. (And our bullpen doesn't do well with that.) |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 9, 2021 14:20:57 GMT -6
His numbers show he is very good the first time through the lineup, pretty good the second time, and then starts getting shelled the third time through the order. He has shown start after start that five innings or around 80 pitches is his max He gets exceeding worse after that. If Odorizzi wants to be trusted to stay in games after the 5th inning, he needs to prove he deserves it. He has shown just the opposite. Dusty did exactly what he should have done.....remove him. That mouthing off in the post-game was nothing but trying to make more excuses. He even said if we had lost the game that he would be blamed for only lasting five innings. He needs to shut the hell up and do his job. He has shown to be mediocre at best and has not earned any confidence from Dusty that he can be relied on to go past five innings. For Click to try to cover up for Odorizzi's bad attitude makes him look bad. Saying this little fit showed Odorizzi to be a competitor was bullshit. What was worse was Click saying we needed guys like that. When Greinke returns, I'd give Odorizzi duty as a long reliever or mop up man. If he wants to pitch over five innings and be counted on, let him prove he can do the job instead of bitching about being pulled. Yeah that's all known. I don't disagree with the numbers. I'm just saying that I think there are situations (like last game) where we can give him a little bit more of a chance to see how he does and maybe save some innings from the bullpen. If we keep pulling every time, he'll never show if he can or not and we're having to go to our bullpen early every 5th start. (And our bullpen doesn't do well with that.) We are trying to clinch a division and a high seed in the post season so why should try to push Odorizzk past five innings when he shows game after game that to be the wrong thing to do? Just because we are paying him to make over 66 pitches doesn't mean he should be left in the game just to throw more pitches when it could cost us a win that we need. If pulling him after five or earlier appears to be the move that gives us the best chance to win, that is what you do. Soothing a pitcher's fragile ego should not be a concern. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 14:24:34 GMT -6
By the way, I don't give a shit what he did in 2019 or 2020 or 1986.
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 14:56:33 GMT -6
Yeah that's all known. I don't disagree with the numbers. I'm just saying that I think there are situations (like last game) where we can give him a little bit more of a chance to see how he does and maybe save some innings from the bullpen. If we keep pulling every time, he'll never show if he can or not and we're having to go to our bullpen early every 5th start. (And our bullpen doesn't do well with that.) We are trying to clinch a division and a high seed in the post season so why should try to push Odorizzk past five innings when he shows game after game that to be the wrong thing to do? Just because we are paying him to make over 66 pitches doesn't mean he should be left in the game just to throw more pitches when it could cost us a win that we need. If pulling him after five or earlier appears to be the move that gives us the best chance to win, that is what you do. Soothing a pitcher's fragile ego should not be a concern. It's not about soothing egos, it's about seeing if you can get a historically solid starting pitcher to a point where he can do more than 4-5 innings a start. It's better for the team that way... Starting off the 6th with no runners on base is hardly "costing us the game". |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 14:57:20 GMT -6
By the way, I don't give a shit what he did in 2019 or 2020 or 1986. So by that logic we should have benched Jose and Yuli last year and they should have started off 2021 in AAA or as bench players this year. Right? |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 15:34:58 GMT -6
By the way, I don't give a shit what he did in 2019 or 2020 or 1986. So by that logic we should have benched Jose and Yuli last year and they should have started off 2021 in AAA or as bench players this year. Right?  |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 9, 2021 15:39:33 GMT -6
I think they need to start pushing him further on games like that, but keep a short leash. If he puts a couple guys on base, yank him. The only time it makes sense for a pitcher who has a history of failing in the sixth to ever see another batter when he allowed ONE to reach base is if there are already two outs. JMO |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 15:42:49 GMT -6
So by that logic we should have benched Jose and Yuli last year and they should have started off 2021 in AAA or as bench players this year. Right? So past performance DOES matter then? You can't pick and choose, sir. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 15:43:44 GMT -6
I think they need to start pushing him further on games like that, but keep a short leash. If he puts a couple guys on base, yank him. The only time it makes sense for a pitcher who has a history of failing in the sixth to ever see another batter when he allowed ONE to reach base is if there are already two outs. JMO Okay, so give him a leash of one baserunner. I just think it's time we see if he can go a bit deeper. That's what she said. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 15:51:34 GMT -6
So past performance DOES matter then? You can't pick and choose, sir. Past performance matters when it's MVP and/or elite performance. Not when it's a mediocre pitcher who never amounted to jack. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 9, 2021 16:31:42 GMT -6
Odorizzi has "amounted to jack" in the past and even made an All Star team. However, the past doesn't mean shit this season. I totally agree that what he did in previous seasons before coming here has nothing to do with the mediocre performances we have gotten from him. He has not proven he is anything but a five inning pitcher this season and this season is what counts. What he did in Minnesota doesn't mean shit.
You don't "push" a guy into trying to give up more innings at the risk of losing the game. Odorizzi doesn't have a leg to stand on in trying to make the case that he should have been left in the game.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 9, 2021 17:39:59 GMT -6
Odorizzi has "amounted to jack" in the past and even made an All Star team. However, the past doesn't mean shit this season. I totally agree that what he did in previous seasons before coming here has nothing to do with the mediocre performances we have gotten from him. He has not proven he is anything but a five inning pitcher this season and this season is what counts. What he did in Minnesota doesn't mean shit. You don't "push" a guy into trying to give up more innings at the risk of losing the game. Odorizzi doesn't have a leg to stand on in trying to make the case that he should have been left in the game. This is just one more situation that shows you can find a "statistic" to prove that one end of a turd is cleaner than the other end. Saint is famous for using this tactic to make the worst players look like they actually have provided good performance. "Yeah, his BA/ERA/Etc is horrible and he's caused us to lose 57 games, but his SKHJKDD.3 is great and proves his All Star talent!" |
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talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 1,115
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Post by talshill on Sept 9, 2021 18:03:21 GMT -6
To his credit he apologized in the Chron today. But my point remains: he should not have put himself in a position to need an apology to cover for running off at the mouth.
Professionals don't air dirty laundry in public. That shit will get you terminated really quickly in the 9-5 world.
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 18:33:40 GMT -6
So past performance DOES matter then? You can't pick and choose, sir. Past performance matters when it's MVP and/or elite performance. Not when it's a mediocre pitcher who never amounted to jack. He was an all-star and finished top-10 in both ROY and CY voting. I'd hardly say he never amounted to jack. P.S. Yuli was never even an all-star. So again, are you saying we should have given up on him? |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 18:35:27 GMT -6
Odorizzi has "amounted to jack" in the past and even made an All Star team. However, the past doesn't mean shit this season. I totally agree that what he did in previous seasons before coming here has nothing to do with the mediocre performances we have gotten from him. He has not proven he is anything but a five inning pitcher this season and this season is what counts. What he did in Minnesota doesn't mean shit. You don't "push" a guy into trying to give up more innings at the risk of losing the game. Odorizzi doesn't have a leg to stand on in trying to make the case that he should have been left in the game. This is just one more situation that shows you can find a "statistic" to prove that one end of a turd is cleaner than the other end. Saint is famous for using this tactic to make the worst players look like they actually have provided good performance. "Yeah, his BA/ERA/Etc is horrible and he's caused us to lose 57 games, but his SKHJKDD.3 is great and proves his All Star talent!" Let's not get excessive when you haven't even answered my comparison of performances. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 9, 2021 18:38:22 GMT -6
And that is why people hate sabermetrics. You can somehow find a metric that says this shitty pitcher is "better than average" when he undeniably sucks outing after outing, so much so that even Dusty Baker's dumb ass realizes it. Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. This is another reason why people hate analytics. When you watch this guy pitch, he continually struggles in the 5th or 6th innings and can’t get you that quality start metric. That’s what everyone not named Jake Odorizzi has noticed when he pitches. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 9, 2021 18:47:10 GMT -6
Well, even without using sabermetrics, a 4.28 ERA is certainly in the "not bad" range. I wouldn't say he sucks outing after outing, I would say he is mediocre outing after outing as long as they don't let him face the order for a 3rd time (right now). But, while I don't like his attitude, it's a little surprising they have such a short leash with him. Before his injury issues last year, you're looking at a guy that averaged 30 Starts 165 IP and a 3.88 ERA over the previous six seasons when he became a full-time starter. Surely they didn't pay him millions of dollars to be a 4-5 inning guy. At some point you would think they would want to start spreading him out more. Heck, in 2019 he was arguably a top starter in the league. If we judge players only on 2020 and parts of 2021, we should be throwing out half of our team. This is another reason why people hate analytics. When you watch this guy pitch, he continually struggles in the 5th or 6th innings and can’t get you that quality start metric. That’s what everyone not named Jake Odorizzi has noticed when he pitches. But even by normal basic stats he was an average at worst pitcher until his health issues last year. He's not an ace and never will be, but he's not as bad as people are thinking. He's a reasonable #3-4 starter in a good-not-elite rotation. We're not going to have aces every start. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 9, 2021 19:29:22 GMT -6
Odorizzi has "amounted to jack" in the past and even made an All Star team. However, the past doesn't mean shit this season. I totally agree that what he did in previous seasons before coming here has nothing to do with the mediocre performances we have gotten from him. He has not proven he is anything but a five inning pitcher this season and this season is what counts. What he did in Minnesota doesn't mean shit. You don't "push" a guy into trying to give up more innings at the risk of losing the game. Odorizzi doesn't have a leg to stand on in trying to make the case that he should have been left in the game. This is just one more situation that shows you can find a "statistic" to prove that one end of a turd is cleaner than the other end. Saint is famous for using this tactic to make the worst players look like they actually have provided good performance. "Yeah, his BA/ERA/Etc is horrible and he's caused us to lose 57 games, but his SKHJKDD.3 is great and proves his All Star talent!" I believe on the past playing a role in determining whether to give the player a chance. But, once he shows he can no longer perform up to what he has done in the past, it's time to forget it and move on. Odorizzi making an All Star team when he was with the Twins doesn't help him be effective for us. |
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