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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 27, 2023 11:56:42 GMT -6
Could Crane and Brown do some Ohtani structured type signings? Altuve and Bergman both getting $22.5M, a year, for 4 and 5 years respectively. Followed by deferred payments of $7.5M for another 5 years. Tucker gets $27.5M for 7 years annually, and then $10M deferred annually for 5 years afterwards . The players would have to agree to that. Ohtani is a different breed, someone who actually cares about winning first and foremost. Don't expect many, or any, other players to act the same. Maybe Altuve would do it, but I would be surprised. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 27, 2023 14:19:33 GMT -6
Could Crane and Brown do some Ohtani structured type signings? Altuve and Bergman both getting $22.5M, a year, for 4 and 5 years respectively. Followed by deferred payments of $7.5M for another 5 years. Tucker gets $27.5M for 7 years annually, and then $10M deferred annually for 5 years afterwards . Sorry, BFAM. I think reality is setting in for you. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Dec 27, 2023 14:27:05 GMT -6
Could Crane and Brown do some Ohtani structured type signings? Altuve and Bergman both getting $22.5M, a year, for 4 and 5 years respectively. Followed by deferred payments of $7.5M for another 5 years. Tucker gets $27.5M for 7 years annually, and then $10M deferred annually for 5 years afterwards . Sorry, BFAM. I think reality is setting in for you. Ignorance is bliss |
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Post by thomasj13 on Dec 27, 2023 14:28:52 GMT -6
Could Crane and Brown do some Ohtani structured type signings? Altuve and Bergman both getting $22.5M, a year, for 4 and 5 years respectively. Followed by deferred payments of $7.5M for another 5 years. Tucker gets $27.5M for 7 years annually, and then $10M deferred annually for 5 years afterwards . Sorry, BFAM. I think reality is setting in for you. Altuve isn’t going anywhere. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 27, 2023 15:09:01 GMT -6
Sorry, BFAM. I think reality is setting in for you. Altuve isn’t going anywhere. It would take a lower offer or massive deferrals. Altuve doesn’t owe them that. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Dec 27, 2023 15:51:35 GMT -6
Altuve isn’t going anywhere. It would take a lower offer or massive deferrals. Altuve doesn’t owe them that. Altuve is Houston. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 27, 2023 17:33:17 GMT -6
It would take a lower offer or massive deferrals. Altuve doesn’t owe them that. Altuve is Houston. Let’s hope it gets done. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 27, 2023 17:52:42 GMT -6
I think Altuve is at least a bit different as well (not totally sold out on the "I have to have the highest salary possible or I am failing the player's union/suffering an ego crisis" mentality that most players seem to have), and legitimately wants to stay here, and Crane knows the P.R. hit of him walking would be just devastating. I think he values Altuve above everyone else on the roster and will do what's needed with him. I think Bregman is more in the Correa and Springer camp; they are loved and are good, but they aren't as loyal to the team/city, and they don't have the face of the franchise thing going. Altuve is with Bagwell, Biggio, and Ryan on the Astros Mount Rushmore at this point. No way they let him go.
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 27, 2023 21:08:12 GMT -6
I think Altuve is at least a bit different as well (not totally sold out on the "I have to have the highest salary possible or I am failing the player's union/suffering an ego crisis" mentality that most players seem to have), and legitimately wants to stay here, and Crane knows the P.R. hit of him walking would be just devastating. I think he values Altuve above everyone else on the roster and will do what's needed with him. I think Bregman is more in the Correa and Springer camp; they are loved and are good, but they aren't as loyal to the team/city, and they don't have the face of the franchise thing going. Altuve is with Bagwell, Biggio, and Ryan on the Astros Mount Rushmore at this point. No way they let him go. Springer, Correa, and Bregman have also earned the title of franchise icons. They put in the work to help bring championships to Houston. |
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Post by Saint on Dec 27, 2023 23:38:14 GMT -6
I can't imagine Altuve plays somewhere else at this point.
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 28, 2023 1:43:43 GMT -6
I think Altuve is at least a bit different as well (not totally sold out on the "I have to have the highest salary possible or I am failing the player's union/suffering an ego crisis" mentality that most players seem to have), and legitimately wants to stay here, and Crane knows the P.R. hit of him walking would be just devastating. I think he values Altuve above everyone else on the roster and will do what's needed with him. I think Bregman is more in the Correa and Springer camp; they are loved and are good, but they aren't as loyal to the team/city, and they don't have the face of the franchise thing going. Altuve is with Bagwell, Biggio, and Ryan on the Astros Mount Rushmore at this point. No way they let him go. Springer, Correa, and Bregman have also earned the title of franchise icons. They put in the work to help bring championships to Houston. I guess. I sometimes wonder if we think of them that way because this team was so bad before them (and so bad-to-mediocre for the large majority of it's existence) that we're kind of like poor folks from the third world that go to a Golden Corral and think they're in a palace. Not to denigrate their contributions at all, but those three guys have had some very good seasons, zero MVPs among them, and were part of championship runs, and then bolted for more money at their first chance. Compared to Bagwell and Biggio who played their entire HoF careers here, they just feel different. Great, but different. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 28, 2023 6:45:34 GMT -6
Springer, Correa, and Bregman have also earned the title of franchise icons. They put in the work to help bring championships to Houston. I guess. I sometimes wonder if we think of them that way because this team was so bad before them (and so bad-to-mediocre for the large majority of it's existence) that we're kind of like poor folks from the third world that go to a Golden Corral and think they're in a palace. Not to denigrate their contributions at all, but those three guys have had some very good seasons, zero MVPs among them, and were part of championship runs, and then bolted for more money at their first chance. Compared to Bagwell and Biggio who played their entire HoF careers here, they just feel different. Great, but different. I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. |
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Post by bearbryant on Dec 28, 2023 10:14:04 GMT -6
That is all Ashitaka cares about. All Unionstation cares about is money that isn't spent (he thinks the owner shouldn't have a limit on his spending) even on players who are not worth it (ie. his man crush Correa). Pfff everyone has a man-crush on Crane here. The man could shoot Altuve and people will say, “Two championships!” Y'all need to remember it was Brown's idea to trade for Verlander and deplete the system's talent |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 28, 2023 10:27:21 GMT -6
Pfff everyone has a man-crush on Crane here. The man could shoot Altuve and people will say, “Two championships!” Y'all need to remember it was Brown's idea to trade for Verlander and deplete the system's talent That seemed like a Crane move. |
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Post by bearbryant on Dec 28, 2023 10:35:47 GMT -6
Y'all need to remember it was Brown's idea to trade for Verlander and deplete the system's talent That seemed like a Crane move. only insofar as raising payroll to get it done |
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 28, 2023 12:12:20 GMT -6
I guess. I sometimes wonder if we think of them that way because this team was so bad before them (and so bad-to-mediocre for the large majority of it's existence) that we're kind of like poor folks from the third world that go to a Golden Corral and think they're in a palace. Not to denigrate their contributions at all, but those three guys have had some very good seasons, zero MVPs among them, and were part of championship runs, and then bolted for more money at their first chance. Compared to Bagwell and Biggio who played their entire HoF careers here, they just feel different. Great, but different. I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Luhnow was known to value players based on what they were likely to do in the future, not what they had done in the past. You know, the correct, smart way. Keuchel thought he was still an ace and deserved an ace contract, and Luhnow wasn't going to give it to him. Their arbitration process of not really negotiating didn't win them fans, either. But they bolt because of money, plain and simple. If the Astros matched or exceeded the money, they'd stay. You think Springer wanted to go to Canada and deal with customs and their taxes etc. instead of staying with this caliber of team and the teammates he loved? It was money. You listen to players who talk about it in interviews, you always hear the same thing; you work hard for six years to earn the right to test the market and find out what your top value is. They covet it. It's an ego thing, and the player's union presses it onto them. They actually have like a training video, a documentary that goes through the history of labor disputes and how the guys that came before them fought so hard to earn the rights of free agency and better benefits etc. and now it's their turn to do the right thing for future generations by getting as much money as they can, lest the owners keep screwing the players. There's actual social pressure from many fellow players and the union to maximize contracts as much as possible, to keep setting new precedents. Lots of "us verses them" groupthink. That's why you see very few truly team-friendly early contracts anymore. You are unlikely to ever see another Jose Altuve or Evan Longoria deal again. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 28, 2023 12:14:16 GMT -6
Y'all need to remember it was Brown's idea to trade for Verlander and deplete the system's talent That seemed like a Crane move. The story at the time was that when Brown saw how much money the Mets ate on Scherzer's deal, he raced to Crane's office to say they could possibly get JV back without taking on a ton of money. Details other than that are unknown (did Brown balk once Gilbert was demanded but Crane did it anyway, or was he fine with losing Gilbert? We may never know), but he started the ball rolling, at least. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Dec 28, 2023 12:14:46 GMT -6
I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Luhnow was known to value players based on what they were likely to do in the future, not what they had done in the past. You know, the correct, smart way. Keuchel thought he was still an ace and deserved an ace contract, and Luhnow wasn't going to give it to him. Their arbitration process of not really negotiating didn't win them fans, either. But they bolt because of money, plain and simple. If the Astros matched or exceeded the money, they'd stay. You think Springer wanted to go to Canada and deal with customs and their taxes etc. instead of staying with this caliber of team and the teammates he loved? It was money. You listen to players who talk about it in interviews, you always hear the same thing; you work hard for six years to earn the right to test the market and find out what your top value is. They covet it. It's an ego thing, and the player's union presses it onto them. They actually have like a training video, a documentary that goes through the history of labor disputes and how the guys that came before them fought so hard to earn the rights of free agency and better benefits etc. and now it's their turn to do the right thing for future generations by getting as much money as they can, lest the owners keep screwing the players. There's actual social pressure from many fellow players and the union to maximize contracts as much as possible, to keep setting new precedents. Lots of "us verses them" groupthink. That's why you see very few truly team-friendly early contracts anymore. You are unlikely to ever see another Jose Altuve or Evan Longoria deal again. Jose Ramirez |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Dec 28, 2023 13:29:13 GMT -6
I guess. I sometimes wonder if we think of them that way because this team was so bad before them (and so bad-to-mediocre for the large majority of it's existence) that we're kind of like poor folks from the third world that go to a Golden Corral and think they're in a palace. Not to denigrate their contributions at all, but those three guys have had some very good seasons, zero MVPs among them, and were part of championship runs, and then bolted for more money at their first chance. Compared to Bagwell and Biggio who played their entire HoF careers here, they just feel different. Great, but different. I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Don't forget the possibility that Crane fully understands that Bregman, Correa, and Springer were 3 of the biggest culprits in the cheating scandal, and letting them walk removes them from your team's culture. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 28, 2023 14:40:52 GMT -6
I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Don't forget the possibility that Crane fully understands that Bregman, Correa, and Springer were 3 of the biggest culprits in the cheating scandal, and letting them walk removes them from your team's culture. Losing those guys would be easier if the farm weren’t in the crapper. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Dec 28, 2023 16:12:16 GMT -6
Don't forget the possibility that Crane fully understands that Bregman, Correa, and Springer were 3 of the biggest culprits in the cheating scandal, and letting them walk removes them from your team's culture. Losing those guys would be easier if the farm weren’t in the crapper. We won a 2nd WS without some of this guys |
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 28, 2023 16:37:47 GMT -6
Losing those guys would be easier if the farm weren’t in the crapper. We won a 2nd WS without some of this guys They need to load up on that pitching again. |
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Post by This is dumb on Dec 28, 2023 16:40:27 GMT -6
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 28, 2023 17:29:44 GMT -6
I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Don't forget the possibility that Crane fully understands that Bregman, Correa, and Springer were 3 of the biggest culprits in the cheating scandal, and letting them walk removes them from your team's culture. I have wondered how much of a factor this played. Apparently they basically didn't even make an offer to Springer, so that makes you wonder. But they did make one to Correa. So I don't know. I feel like he's willing to keep those guys, but is maybe fine with seeing them go if they won't take lowball offers. FWIW Bregman was in his first full season. I feel like there's less stink on him (or there should be) than most other guys. It's really tough to expect a guy who is essentially a rookie to stand up when you're in a clubhouse culture run by a superstar like Beltran, complete with active participation from the coaching staff (Cora). |
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 28, 2023 17:35:48 GMT -6
The fact that the Dodgers have the farm they do despite everything else is just borderline unfair. |
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Post by Saint on Dec 28, 2023 18:12:36 GMT -6
Springer had made it very clear he wanted to be a free agent and move on early in his career. He was frustrated with the Astros FO from the beginning.
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Post by Ashitaka on Dec 29, 2023 3:15:34 GMT -6
Whitley looking good for the moment:
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Post by unionstation82 on Dec 29, 2023 7:35:01 GMT -6
Whitley looking good for the moment: KingofJUCO seems to be a big fan of his and he sticks up for him. |
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Post by m240 on Dec 29, 2023 11:32:28 GMT -6
Whitley looking good for the moment: KingofJUCO seems to be a big fan of his and he sticks up for him. It seems as if they are finally going to put Whitley in the pen. Not saying he will make a good reliever but he damn sure has shown nothing that would make one think he will ever be a solid starter. He has shown some characteristics of being a solid middle reliever. |
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talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
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Post by talshill on Dec 29, 2023 16:15:01 GMT -6
I understand what you’re saying. They’re definitely on a level below Altuve, but it makes you wonder about the relationship between the players and the front office and why they abandon ship so often. I remember when Keuchel first came back to Houston as a White Sox and said it wasn’t a secret he and Luhnow didn’t get along. I was like what. Luhnow was known to value players based on what they were likely to do in the future, not what they had done in the past. You know, the correct, smart way. Keuchel thought he was still an ace and deserved an ace contract, and Luhnow wasn't going to give it to him. Their arbitration process of not really negotiating didn't win them fans, either. But they bolt because of money, plain and simple. If the Astros matched or exceeded the money, they'd stay. You think Springer wanted to go to Canada and deal with customs and their taxes etc. instead of staying with this caliber of team and the teammates he loved? It was money. You listen to players who talk about it in interviews, you always hear the same thing; you work hard for six years to earn the right to test the market and find out what your top value is. They covet it. It's an ego thing, and the player's union presses it onto them. They actually have like a training video, a documentary that goes through the history of labor disputes and how the guys that came before them fought so hard to earn the rights of free agency and better benefits etc. and now it's their turn to do the right thing for future generations by getting as much money as they can, lest the owners keep screwing the players. There's actual social pressure from many fellow players and the union to maximize contracts as much as possible, to keep setting new precedents. Lots of "us verses them" groupthink. That's why you see very few truly team-friendly early contracts anymore. You are unlikely to ever see another Jose Altuve or Evan Longoria deal again. Luhnow offered 5/90M to Keuchel, IIRC. Keuchel was insulted by that pittance of an offer. So he tested the open market where he has, so far, made $75M. Thank heaven he didn’t take the offer because we would have probably gotten less production from him than we have from LMJ. Springer (and his new wife) didn’t like Houston and didn’t want to stay long-term. He was also upset that he was late reaching the majors due to his super-two status. There Luhnow did the best thing for the organization, not the player, which was the correct play. He wanted to go back to the New England area and wasn’t going to entertain offers from the Astros. Period. We don’t really know if they made him an offer or not, but George was on the wrong side of 30 at the time so it was probably best for all involved. We all know the Cole situation. We offered him a crap-ton of money. He wanted NYY $. After he basically crapped on the Astros after game 7 in 2019 I’m personally glad the prima donna hauled ass. He’s not a high-character player and that matters. Correa was an awesome defender and a less-than-awesome hitter who has tons of physical problems. He also got way too cocky (“It’s my time”, etc.). He never lived up to his potential but wanted to be paid as if he had. To his credit he did defend his teammates, but not worth north of $30M/yr. Not re-signing these guys is easily defensible from a business perspective. Baseball players are waaaay overpaid for what they actually contribute and you wind up overpaying to keep them. We’ve had a lot of good ones and there’s no anyone can overpay them all. Had we kept them all at their current wages the payroll would currently be $350M with an aging, overpriced roster. Would we have won another title or two? Who knows. |
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