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Post by batman007 on Sept 16, 2019 18:32:21 GMT -6
Because batting .275+ with damn near 200 hits/season for his first 3 seasons is overrated. Yeah, ok.
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Post by Saint on Sept 16, 2019 19:34:33 GMT -6
Because batting .275+ with damn near 200 hits/season for his first 3 seasons is overrated. Yeah, ok. He averaged 135 hits with a 92 OPS+.... That's not good. |
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Post by bearbryant on Sept 16, 2019 19:39:05 GMT -6
I think Saint is about to be off the hook for his overrated comment about Altuve. New contenders have emerged regarding Altuve and his status.
It's amusing that the fans have gone in a circle with respect to it the whole of Altuve's career now
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 16, 2019 19:40:55 GMT -6
I think Saint is about to be off the hook for his overrated comment about Altuve. New contenders have emerged regarding Altuve and his status. I'd agree if it were anyone other than Corch who's retardedly saying Altuve isn't elite. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 16, 2019 19:49:14 GMT -6
I stick by my sentiment that he was overrated his first couple seasons. But now, the guy's a beast. That’s right. Keep defending The Alamo. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 16, 2019 21:30:52 GMT -6
Because batting .275+ with damn near 200 hits/season for his first 3 seasons is overrated. Yeah, ok. He averaged 135 hits with a 92 OPS+.... That's not good. Nice. You're averaging not even a full season and robbing him of 30+ more hits. You're right, he's not an elite hitter at all. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 16, 2019 22:11:35 GMT -6
He averaged 135 hits with a 92 OPS+.... That's not good. Nice. You're averaging not even a full season and robbing him of 30+ more hits. You're right, he's not an elite hitter at all. Having a higher IQ could help him be elite. Elite hitters and elite players don't do some of the brainless things he does. |
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marshall
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Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
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Post by marshall on Sept 17, 2019 1:11:08 GMT -6
Nice. You're averaging not even a full season and robbing him of 30+ more hits. You're right, he's not an elite hitter at all. Having a higher IQ could help him be elite. Elite hitters and elite players don't do some of the brainless things he does. What could Ted Williams have done to be an elite hitter? What about Tony Gwynn? I'm sure both had flaws you would correct if only they would have had your help. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 6:18:25 GMT -6
He averaged 135 hits with a 92 OPS+.... That's not good. Nice. You're averaging not even a full season and robbing him of 30+ more hits. You're right, he's not an elite hitter at all. Even without that season (that you used, so I used it too) he averaged 170 hits and was still a below average hitter production-wise. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 12:03:59 GMT -6
Nice. You're averaging not even a full season and robbing him of 30+ more hits. You're right, he's not an elite hitter at all. Even without that season (that you used, so I used it too) he averaged 170 hits and was still a below average hitter production-wise. So now we’re just talking production wise. What more would you like him to produce? |
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 12:21:26 GMT -6
Even without that season (that you used, so I used it too) he averaged 170 hits and was still a below average hitter production-wise. So now we’re just talking production wise. What more would you like him to produce? Wat? I said his first few seasons were not very good. I know he was an all-star in 2012, but that's just because we had to have somebody. He was basically a league-average player overall. His overall performance/production/offense (whatever you'd like to use) was not very good until 2014. He wasn't a bad player, but he was certainly not a very good player until 2014. As fans at the time, our team was so bad and we were so desperate for something positive to root for that most people overvalued him at the time when he hadn't done a whole lot yet. That's what I meant at the time about him being overrated. Since 2014, there has certainly been very little to complain about. He developed into an amazing player, and, when healthy the last few seasons, has been a top-5 hitter in baseball. I have no complaints about his production now. If anything, some fans are undervaluing him now because he has had some leg issues. Since the leg issues were resolved he is back at a top-performing level. He's on a trajectory to easily make the HoF if he can put together even just 3-4 more good seasons. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 16:56:15 GMT -6
| AB | Runs | Hits | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | SB | CS | BB | SO | BA | OBP | SLG | | Player A | 554 | 79 | 163 | 26 | 4 | 15 | 82 | 7 | 4 | 75 | 116 | .294 | .387 | .437 | | Player B | 576 | 80 | 167 | 34 | 4 | 7 | 37 | 33 | 11 | 40 | 74 | .290 | .340 | .399 | | Player C | 586 | 87 | 160 | 34 | 6 | 18 | 96 | 10 | 6 | 84 | 97 | .273 | .368 | .444 | | Player D | 626 | 64 | 177 | 31 | 2 | 5 | 52 | 35 | 13 | 32 | 85 | .283 | .316 | .363 | | Player E | 623 | 101 | 170 | 25 | 9 | 6 | 41 | 13 | 15 | 36 | 51 | .273 | .334 | .371 |
Which of these player lines do you like, not like, look overrated, and why? |
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 18:16:09 GMT -6
| AB | Runs | Hits | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | SB | CS | BB | SO | BA | OBP | SLG | | Player A | 554 | 79 | 163 | 26 | 4 | 15 | 82 | 7 | 4 | 75 | 116 | .294 | .387 | .437 | | Player B | 576 | 80 | 167 | 34 | 4 | 7 | 37 | 33 | 11 | 40 | 74 | .290 | .340 | .399 | | Player C | 586 | 87 | 160 | 34 | 6 | 18 | 96 | 10 | 6 | 84 | 97 | .273 | .368 | .444 | | Player D | 626 | 64 | 177 | 31 | 2 | 5 | 52 | 35 | 13 | 32 | 85 | .283 | .316 | .363 | | Player E | 623 | 101 | 170 | 25 | 9 | 6 | 41 | 13 | 15 | 36 | 51 | .273 | .334 | .371 |
Which of these player lines do you like, not like, look overrated, and why? The two Bagwell seasons are good but not amazing. Altuve's 2013 season is garbage. His 2012 season is solid. The E season I don't recognize off the top of my head but it's not great either. Average I would say. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 19:03:38 GMT -6
So Bagwell's first season, which wins him ROY is just good, and Pete Rose's first season, which wins him ROY is just average. I feel like you're comparing first/rookie seasons of players to an already established MVP type player. When you compare to that, sure these numbers are just bleh. However, these are rookies putting up "average" numbers in their first full season, which IMO is fantastic. Most rookies, hell a lot of veterans, don't put up numbers like these.
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 19:09:57 GMT -6
So Bagwell's first season, which wins him ROY is just good, and Pete Rose's first season, which wins him ROY is just average. I feel like you're comparing first/rookie seasons of players to an already established MVP type player. When you compare to that, sure these numbers are just bleh. However, these are rookies putting up "average" numbers in their first full season, which IMO is fantastic. Most rookies, hell a lot of veterans, don't put up numbers like these. I'm just going by the numbers. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 20:01:45 GMT -6
So Bagwell's first season, which wins him ROY is just good, and Pete Rose's first season, which wins him ROY is just average. I feel like you're comparing first/rookie seasons of players to an already established MVP type player. When you compare to that, sure these numbers are just bleh. However, these are rookies putting up "average" numbers in their first full season, which IMO is fantastic. Most rookies, hell a lot of veterans, don't put up numbers like these. I'm just going by the numbers. Annnnnnd that's your problem. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 20:07:53 GMT -6
I'm just going by the numbers. Annnnnnd that's your problem. They're good seasons because he's a nice guy? You've lost me. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 20:50:45 GMT -6
Anyone who actually saw Altuve play his first few years could tell he was going to be an almost elite player. How hard he hits the ball, where he hits the ball, his hustle, his aggressiveness, the pitches he swings at, the contact he makes etc. You can't put that into numbers. There's a reason teams use scouts to help evaluate players instead of "just going by the numbers".
And again, you're also comparing a ROOKIES numbers to already established pro players. Most rookies don't put up "average" numbers.
I now understand how you thought of him as overrated. I think it's a misguided thought process, but I get it now.
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2019 20:56:50 GMT -6
Anyone who actually saw Altuve play his first few years could tell he was going to be an almost elite player. How hard he hits the ball, where he hits the ball, his hustle, his aggressiveness, the pitches he swings at, the contact he makes etc. You can't put that into numbers. There's a reason teams use scouts to help evaluate players instead of "just going by the numbers". And again, you're also comparing a ROOKIES numbers to already established pro players. Most rookies don't put up "average" numbers. I now understand how you thought of him as overrated. I think it's a misguided thought process, but I get it now. You used his 2nd and 3rd season numbers, not rookie numbers. And you're talking about rating potential for a young player when I was rating him based on what he had actually done. There is a difference. I never said he wouldn't be good. |
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Post by batman007 on Sept 17, 2019 21:19:03 GMT -6
His second season was his first full season. He didn't even play half a season his first season. I rated him on what he actually did as well, and what he actually did was really good.
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Post by blcoach8 on Sept 17, 2019 22:32:38 GMT -6
Bagwell was a great player who was notorious for padding his stats after the game had been decided.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 4:42:08 GMT -6
Bagwell was a great player who was notorious for padding his stats after the game had been decided. Bonds was even worse. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 7:26:30 GMT -6
His second season was his first full season. He didn't even play half a season his first season. I rated him on what he actually did as well, and what he actually did was really good. 2012 and 2013 seasons for Altuve were not very good. Overall they were average seasons for a MLB player. And there is nothing wrong with that for a young player. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 7:36:09 GMT -6
Bagwell was a great player who was notorious for padding his stats after the game had been decided. Bagwell hit: w/ RISP: .998 OPS /w 2 outs and RISP: .944 OPS Late & Close Situations: .889 OPS Tie Games: .922 OPS When Losing: .969 OPS High Leverage: .981 The guy produced during pretty much any situation. Your memory is incorrect. And he was a better hitter with men on base, period, than when there wasn't. If only it hadn't taken him until 2001 postseason to start hitting in the playoffs. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 18, 2019 8:17:37 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him)
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Post by thomasj13 on Sept 18, 2019 8:24:53 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Nolan Ryan |
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Post by thomasj13 on Sept 18, 2019 8:25:38 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Ryan Bagwell Biggio Altuve |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:27:49 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Nolan Ryan Nolan is an icon and one of my favorite players, but he was only a 110 ERA+ pitcher for us. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:28:53 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Way Way Way too early, but early indications are that Alvarez might be that category too by the late 2030's. I have never seen a baseball player swing a bat so effortless. It's like watching a larger Roberto Clemente 50 years later. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:30:52 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Way Way Way too early, but early indications are that Alvarez might be that category too by the late 2030's. I have never seen a baseball player swing a bat so effortless. It's like watching a larger Roberto Clemente 50 years later. Alvarez might go down as one of our best hitters, but Bagwell and Altuve play defense and are/were above-average baserunners (normally). They were/are complete players. |
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