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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:31:44 GMT -6
Nolan is an icon and one of my favorite players, but he was only a 110 ERA+ pitcher for us. Ryan is my all time favorite baseball player, but when spreading Astros superlatives, you have to take in account longevity. Ryan was here ony 9 (1/3 of his career) years. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 18, 2019 8:38:21 GMT -6
Bagwell is the best Astros player there ever was, period. (Altuve might surpass him) Nolan Ryan  |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:42:20 GMT -6
Nolan is an icon and one of my favorite players, but he was only a 110 ERA+ pitcher for us. Ryan is my all time favorite baseball player, but when spreading Astros superlatives, you have to take in account longevity. Ryan was here ony 9 (1/3 of his career) years. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. He deserves more credit or less credit? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:43:00 GMT -6
Way Way Way too early, but early indications are that Alvarez might be that category too by the late 2030's. I have never seen a baseball player swing a bat so effortless. It's like watching a larger Roberto Clemente 50 years later. Alvarez might go down as one of our best hitters, but Bagwell and Altuve play defense and are/were above-average baserunners (normally). They were/are complete players. Uhhh oh....hold Coach back.... quick. On a serious note.... So Yordan should be penalized for just having a specialty? What if he has a Mantleish offensive type of career? Second point... do we really know he is a defensive liability? His MiLB fielding pct is .993, which is pretty normal for someone at 1st. Add the fact he is athletic as hell, he might surprise us. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:44:49 GMT -6
Alvarez might go down as one of our best hitters, but Bagwell and Altuve play defense and are/were above-average baserunners (normally). They were/are complete players. Uhhh oh....hold Coach back.... quick. On a serious note.... So Yordan should be penalized for just having a specialty? What if he has a Mantleish offensive type of career? Second point... do we really know he is a defensive liability? His MiLB fielding pct is .993, which is pretty normal for someone at 1st. Add the fact he is athletic as hell, he might surprise us. Not penalized, but playing all aspects of the game should factor into an evaluation. If I have two 400+ HR hitters that hit around .300, but one was a good defensive player and stole 200+ bases, and one played 25 games a year in LF and stole 5 bases his whole career...the first guy gets my vote. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:45:06 GMT -6
Ryan is my all time favorite baseball player, but when spreading Astros superlatives, you have to take in account longevity. Ryan was here ony 9 (1/3 of his career) years. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. He deserves more credit or less credit? Less credit as far as best all time. His 9 years here does not stack up as well as Bagwell's and Biggio, who both spent nearly 20 years with the team, and accumlated the stats accordingly. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:45:47 GMT -6
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. He deserves more credit or less credit? Less credit as far as best all time. His 9 years here does not stack up as well as Bagwell's and Biggio, who both spent nearly 20 years with the team, and accumlated the stats accordingly. Gotcha. I agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:48:11 GMT -6
Less credit as far as best all time. His 9 years here does not stack up as well as Bagwell's and Biggio, who both spent nearly 20 years with the team, and accumlated the stats accordingly. Gotcha. I agree. But who was an overall greater impactful player between the 3? Ryan easily. He has a couple of MLB records that I feel will never be broken. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 8:51:24 GMT -6
But who was an overall greater impactful player between the 3? Ryan easily. He has a couple of MLB records that I feel will never be broken. Impactful to the game or impactful to Houston and the Astros? Those are different. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:12:39 GMT -6
Way Way Way too early, but early indications are that Alvarez might be that category too by the late 2030's. I have never seen a baseball player swing a bat so effortless. It's like watching a larger Roberto Clemente 50 years later. Alvarez might go down as one of our best hitters, but Bagwell and Altuve play defense and are/were above-average baserunners (normally). They were/are complete players. I’m sorry but you can’t compare the two in terms of base running. |
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Post by marshall on Sept 18, 2019 9:12:59 GMT -6
Bagwell was a great player who was notorious for padding his stats after the game had been decided. Bagwell hit: w/ RISP: .998 OPS /w 2 outs and RISP: .944 OPS Late & Close Situations: .889 OPS Tie Games: .922 OPS When Losing: .969 OPS High Leverage: .981 The guy produced during pretty much any situation. Your memory is incorrect. And he was a better hitter with men on base, period, than when there wasn't. If only it hadn't taken him until 2001 postseason to start hitting in the playoffs. Bagwell suffered because of comparisons with Reggie Jackson and his Mr. October image. I always thought Reggie was just a slacker during the season. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 9:20:34 GMT -6
Bagwell hit: w/ RISP: .998 OPS /w 2 outs and RISP: .944 OPS Late & Close Situations: .889 OPS Tie Games: .922 OPS When Losing: .969 OPS High Leverage: .981 The guy produced during pretty much any situation. Your memory is incorrect. And he was a better hitter with men on base, period, than when there wasn't. If only it hadn't taken him until 2001 postseason to start hitting in the playoffs. Bagwell suffered because of comparisons with Reggie Jackson and his Mr. October image. I always thought Reggie was just a slacker during the season. When I was asked why it took all the way to 2017 for the Astros to win a championship, in the simpliest terms? Post Season ba- Bagwell- .226 Biggio- .234 |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:28:39 GMT -6
Alvarez might go down as one of our best hitters, but Bagwell and Altuve play defense and are/were above-average baserunners (normally). They were/are complete players. Im sorry but you can’t compare the two in terms of baserunning. And why not? One was smarter and the other was faster. They both had their value though. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:31:26 GMT -6
Bagwell suffered because of comparisons with Reggie Jackson and his Mr. October image. I always thought Reggie was just a slacker during the season. When I was asked why it took all the way to 2017 for the Astros to win a championship, in the simpliest terms? Post Season ba- Bagwell- .226 Biggio- .234 Yeah, Bagwell had success in the 2001 and 2004 postseasons, and Biggio had success in the 2004 and 2005 postseasons, but they couldn't get it together in their primes when they were the heart of the team, unfortunately. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:31:34 GMT -6
Im sorry but you can’t compare the two in terms of baserunning. And why not? One was smarter and the other was faster. They both had their value though. Smarts is part of baserunning and more important than speed. Otherwise, Kemp and Marisnick would be in their class. I can’t honestly say that Altuve is that much smarter on the bases than Kemp. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:33:23 GMT -6
Altuve just goes whenever he feels like it and takes risks that are inappropriate at times. Bagwell was a savvy runner who studied the pitcher and worked out optimal times to take chances. A guy of his build and speed isn’t supposed to steal 30 bases in a season or steal home. Bagwell wouldn’t dare get thrown out at third base to end an inning or run through many stop signs. He could take appropriate leads and steal bases when they needed him to do so. He could reliably go first to third on base hits. What he lacked in speed, he made up for it in the mental game. That’s why he’s the best position player the team has ever had.
Also, Bagwell was a better defender for his position.
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:39:27 GMT -6
Altuve just goes whenever he feels like it and takes risks that are inappropriate at times. Bagwell was a savvy runner who studied the pitcher and worked out optimal times to take chances. A guy of his build and speed isn’t supposed to steal 30 bases in a season or steal home. Also, Bagwell was a better defender for his position. Okay let's be honest here: Bagwell: 72% Success Rate and 2.06 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Altuve: 77% Success Rate and 1.55 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Bagwell was a little better at running outside of the steals, but Altuve is the far better basestealer. Altuve takes more risks and they haven't paid off this year, but he's still an above-average baserunner for his career. Also, as far as defense: Bagwell dWAR: -7.2 for his career Altuve dWAR: 1.5 for his career Altuve, at this point, is the better defensive player for his position, but he hasn't played as many seasons yet. We'll have to see. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:42:31 GMT -6
Altuve just goes whenever he feels like it and takes risks that are inappropriate at times. Bagwell was a savvy runner who studied the pitcher and worked out optimal times to take chances. A guy of his build and speed isn’t supposed to steal 30 bases in a season or steal home. Also, Bagwell was a better defender for his position. Okay let's be honest here: Bagwell: 72% Success Rate and 2.06 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Altuve: 77% Success Rate and 1.55 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Bagwell was a little better at running outside of the steals, but Altuve is the far better basestealer. Altuve takes more risks and they haven't paid off this year, but he's still an above-average baserunner for his career. Also, as far as defense: Bagwell dWAR: -7.2 for his career Altuve dWAR: 1.5 for his career Altuve, at this point, is the better defensive player for his position, but he hasn't played as many seasons yet. We'll have to see. I’m sure the defensive stats are skewed by the point in his career when I threw better than him. As far as baserunning, stats don’t tell the whole tale. I don’t recall a time where he did something really mind numbing on the bases. With Altuve, it’s been several times. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:44:43 GMT -6
Also, we agreed that Altuve was much faster than Bagwell. He also steals bases at a better clip, but he has that genetic advantage. But why then is Bagwell more above average at scoring runs? It can’t just be teammates. Altuve currently plays with more talent than Bagwell typically did.
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:47:09 GMT -6
Okay let's be honest here: Bagwell: 72% Success Rate and 2.06 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Altuve: 77% Success Rate and 1.55 Runs from baserunning above-average per season. Bagwell was a little better at running outside of the steals, but Altuve is the far better basestealer. Altuve takes more risks and they haven't paid off this year, but he's still an above-average baserunner for his career. Also, as far as defense: Bagwell dWAR: -7.2 for his career Altuve dWAR: 1.5 for his career Altuve, at this point, is the better defensive player for his position, but he hasn't played as many seasons yet. We'll have to see. I’m sure the defensive stats are skewed by the point in his career when I threw better than him. As far as baserunning, stats don’t tell the whole tale. I don’t recall a time where he did something really mind numbing on the bases. With Altuve, it’s been several times. It's not his fault his arm went out, but it still hurt his defense. Health factors into performance and value. As for baserunning, sure stats don't tell the whole tale, but the point I'm making is that Altuve is not some horrible baserunner. Don't let some poor risky choices this year affect your whole outlook on his running. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:49:03 GMT -6
Also, we agreed that Altuve was much faster than Bagwell. He also steals bases at a better clip, but he has that genetic advantage. But why then is Bagwell more above average at scoring runs? It can’t just be teammates. Altuve currently plays with more talent than Bagwell typically did. Bagwell hit 30 or 40+ HRs every year driving himself in more often too. He had more power. He was bigger and stronger. Why is a genetic advantage for speed with Altuve any different than a genetic advantage in strength for Bagwell? edit: And Bagwell got on base a helluva lot more than Altuve. More chances to score. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 9:54:32 GMT -6
Also, we agreed that Altuve was much faster than Bagwell. He also steals bases at a better clip, but he has that genetic advantage. But why then is Bagwell more above average at scoring runs? It can’t just be teammates. Altuve currently plays with more talent than Bagwell typically did. Bagwell hit 30 or 40+ HRs every year driving himself in more often too. He had more power. He was bigger and stronger. Why is a genetic advantage for speed with Altuve any different than a genetic advantage in strength for Bagwell? edit: And Bagwell got on base a helluva lot more than Altuve. More chances to score. And if Altuve made smarter decisions, he would trounce Bagwell in baserunning. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 18, 2019 9:57:48 GMT -6
Bagwell hit 30 or 40+ HRs every year driving himself in more often too. He had more power. He was bigger and stronger. Why is a genetic advantage for speed with Altuve any different than a genetic advantage in strength for Bagwell? edit: And Bagwell got on base a helluva lot more than Altuve. More chances to score. And if Altuve made smarter decisions, he would trounce Bagwell in baserunning. Probably, but doesn't change the fact that Altuve is normally a pretty good baserunner, all things considered. He has had some weird plays this year running-wise and defensively. I think it's a combination of a lot of things from the health concerns to trying to do too much, etc. If he starts the year healthy next season I expect to see more of the normal Altuve all the way around. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 10:00:08 GMT -6
And if Altuve made smarter decisions, he would trounce Bagwell in baserunning. Probably, but doesn't change the fact that Altuve is normally a pretty good baserunner, all things considered. He has had some weird plays this year running-wise and defensively. I think it's a combination of a lot of things from the health concerns to trying to do too much, etc. If he starts the year healthy next season I expect to see more of the normal Altuve all the way around. Normally, yes, but the bad decisions take him down a notch in my eyes. Bagwell had less of those. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Sept 18, 2019 10:30:23 GMT -6
Probably, but doesn't change the fact that Altuve is normally a pretty good baserunner, all things considered. He has had some weird plays this year running-wise and defensively. I think it's a combination of a lot of things from the health concerns to trying to do too much, etc. If he starts the year healthy next season I expect to see more of the normal Altuve all the way around. Normally, yes, but the bad decisions take him down a notch in my eyes. Bagwell had less of those. Speaking of Jose's base running, his game is one of aggression, he is not going to stop on what he is doing. Bag's was one of the best in picking his spots on taking the extra base and stealing a bag. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 10:34:04 GMT -6
Normally, yes, but the bad decisions take him down a notch in my eyes. Bagwell had less of those. Speaking of Jose's base running, his game is one of aggression, he is not going to stop on what he is doing. Bag's was one of the best in picking his spots on taking the extra base and stealing a bag. Aggression can be taken advantage of by the opposition. For instance, the 3B and SS lying in wait for him to pull an outside pitch. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Sept 18, 2019 10:40:40 GMT -6
Speaking of Jose's base running, his game is one of aggression, he is not going to stop on what he is doing. Bag's was one of the best in picking his spots on taking the extra base and stealing a bag. Aggression can be taken advantage of by the opposition. For instance, the 3B and SS lying in wait for him to pull an outside pitch. Every player goes with their own tune, that is my observation, I don't see him changing his game. Just like watching Craig swinging over sliders down and away his whole career. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Sept 18, 2019 10:52:03 GMT -6
Aggression can be taken advantage of by the opposition. For instance, the 3B and SS lying in wait for him to pull an outside pitch. Every player goes with their own tune, that is my observation, I don't see him changing his game. Just like watching Craig swinging over sliders down and away his whole career. Altuve is just going to do what Hinch allows him to do. I don’t blame him to be honest. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Sept 18, 2019 10:56:50 GMT -6
Every player goes with their own tune, that is my observation, I don't see him changing his game. Just like watching Craig swinging over sliders down and away his whole career. Altuve is just going to do what Hinch allows him to do. I don’t blame him to be honest. I agree with you there. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 10:58:53 GMT -6
Altuve is just going to do what Hinch allows him to do. I don’t blame him to be honest. I agree with you there. Sometimes Altuve's exuberance leads to bad decisions. But with his body of work and accomplishments, who can really say that much ill about it. |
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