|
|
Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Dec 20, 2023 19:11:29 GMT -6
They won’t. This is the only way to improve the team at this point with Crane running things. See, I don't get this. How many championships did the Astros win before Crane got here? He's been the best owner in Houston history for any sport. It's very easy for some dude in an armchair to spend someone else's money, especially when they don't have access to the financials or know anything about running a corporation. Unbelievable. Sherwin hasn't made sense in about the last 6 months, since he decided Crane has to spend every cent he has in his pocket in order to make Sherwin happy...and none of it can be spent on anything other than the Astros (yes, sherwin and ash are mad at Crane for buying buildings downtown) |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 20, 2023 20:21:04 GMT -6
See, I don't get this. How many championships did the Astros win before Crane got here? He's been the best owner in Houston history for any sport. It's very easy for some dude in an armchair to spend someone else's money, especially when they don't have access to the financials or know anything about running a corporation. Unbelievable. Sherwin hasn't made sense in about the last 6 months, since he decided Crane has to spend every cent he has in his pocket in order to make Sherwin happy...and none of it can be spent on anything other than the Astros (yes, sherwin and ash are mad at Crane for buying buildings downtown) If Crane wants to trade Framber, I’m not opposed to it. |
|
talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 1,115
|
Post by talshill on Dec 20, 2023 21:07:43 GMT -6
I don’t know how much money the Astros make. I don’t know what their expenses are or how profitable they are. Other than speculative guesses no one here knows either. When Crane bought the team he was screwed into changing leagues. He tried to hire the best GM he could (Friedman) who bolted for the Dodgers. Instead he hired a guy none of us had ever heard of (Luhnow) who not only constructed the team but innovated how the team goes about its business from the smallest detail up and put a perennial championship-level team together. He’s approved big-dollar trades and has exceeded the penalty threshold to do so. Brown even told the media point-blank they’d do it again FOR THE RIGHT DEAL. For the life of me I cannot understand how anyone could be critical of how he’s run the organization unless he had knowledge of the scandal and did nothing.
As far as I know the Astros are still in contention for another WS run this year. Trading arguably your best pitcher and a 4-plus WAR third baseman for maybes or wannabes will certainly kill that chance. However, if they can get better value by trading one of them you’d have to be foolish not to listen. But I doubt that’s gonna happen.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 21, 2023 4:06:43 GMT -6
I think it would be foolish to trade away one of your best pitchers while the team is could be a 2024 WS contender. Unless, they sign a #2 or better pitcher to a long term contract. Now my position would/will change if the Astros are not in playoff contention come trade deadline. They won’t sign one so they might as well see if they can add some life to the farm in the process. Being ranked last isn’t a good plan for the future. I think they milked about all they could out of Framber. It might be a good time to sell as high as possible. And not even see if the Astros are contenders in 2024, after 7 straight ALCS? I get the frustration with how things ended with Valdez in 2023, but c’mon BFAM! |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 9:06:52 GMT -6
They won’t sign one so they might as well see if they can add some life to the farm in the process. Being ranked last isn’t a good plan for the future. I think they milked about all they could out of Framber. It might be a good time to sell as high as possible. And not even see if the Astros are contenders in 2024, after 7 straight ALCS? I get the frustration with how things ended with Valdez in 2023, but c’mon BFAM! It's not just how things ended though. Something happened to Framber mid-way through last season and the playoffs were just the cherry on top. 2.51 ERA in the first half, 4.66 in the second half, 9.00 in the playoffs. If teams are willing to trade for him assuming he rebounds (I.E. give serious value for him), is it really crazy to entertain trading him, knowing that he could implode again, knowing they won't resign him, knowing Crane will not give fair market extensions or free agent contracts, knowing he won't go significantly over the tax threshhold, knowing the farm system is in a shambles and cannot replace outgoing players, and knowing that this team has a strong rotation picture even without Framber for 2024? You tell me. How does this team maintain long-term, serious competitiveness under all those circumstances without making some hard, Rays-esque decisions about soon-to-depart players? Crane can do what he wants with his money, but if he's going to act like the Rays owner when it comes to extensions and free agents, he should probably start acting like the Rays owner when it comes to guys he knows he won't extend as well. |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 21, 2023 9:56:24 GMT -6
They won’t sign one so they might as well see if they can add some life to the farm in the process. Being ranked last isn’t a good plan for the future. I think they milked about all they could out of Framber. It might be a good time to sell as high as possible. And not even see if the Astros are contenders in 2024, after 7 straight ALCS? I get the frustration with how things ended with Valdez in 2023, but c’mon BFAM! I would rather trade him than go with this usual game of them acting like they want to extend a player only to let them leave in free agency. At least this way, you can get something for the player. The farm system is poor, and Crane doesn’t want to pay a payroll penalty. Tough decisions have to be made. This is the time for going heavy in one direction. Either amass good prospects that can help you in trades or rebuilding/retooling or spend more to keep up with the other teams. It has been a good run but they need to start thinking of the future since they keep letting the core walk. Altuve isn’t getting younger, and he needs more friends to play with before his career ends. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 21, 2023 9:58:54 GMT -6
And not even see if the Astros are contenders in 2024, after 7 straight ALCS? I get the frustration with how things ended with Valdez in 2023, but c’mon BFAM! It's not just how things ended though. Something happened to Framber mid-way through last season and the playoffs were just the cherry on top. 2.51 ERA in the first half, 4.66 in the second half, 9.00 in the playoffs. If teams are willing to trade for him assuming he rebounds (I.E. give serious value for him), is it really crazy to entertain trading him, knowing that he could implode again, knowing they won't resign him, knowing Crane will not give fair market extensions or free agent contracts, knowing he won't go significantly over the tax threshhold, knowing the farm system is in a shambles and cannot replace outgoing players, and knowing that this team has a strong rotation picture even without Framber for 2024? You tell me. How does this team maintain long-term, serious competitiveness under all those circumstances without making some hard, Rays-esque decisions about soon-to-depart players? Crane can do what he wants with his money, but if he's going to act like the Rays owner when it comes to extensions and free agents, he should probably start acting like the Rays owner when it comes to guys he knows he won't extend as well. What’s the Astros total payroll vs the Rays? |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 21, 2023 10:00:02 GMT -6
It's not just how things ended though. Something happened to Framber mid-way through last season and the playoffs were just the cherry on top. 2.51 ERA in the first half, 4.66 in the second half, 9.00 in the playoffs. If teams are willing to trade for him assuming he rebounds (I.E. give serious value for him), is it really crazy to entertain trading him, knowing that he could implode again, knowing they won't resign him, knowing Crane will not give fair market extensions or free agent contracts, knowing he won't go significantly over the tax threshhold, knowing the farm system is in a shambles and cannot replace outgoing players, and knowing that this team has a strong rotation picture even without Framber for 2024? You tell me. How does this team maintain long-term, serious competitiveness under all those circumstances without making some hard, Rays-esque decisions about soon-to-depart players? Crane can do what he wants with his money, but if he's going to act like the Rays owner when it comes to extensions and free agents, he should probably start acting like the Rays owner when it comes to guys he knows he won't extend as well. What’s the Astros total payroll vs the Rays? Where do the Astros rank in the league total payroll? |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 10:18:28 GMT -6
What’s the Astros total payroll vs the Rays? Where do the Astros rank in the league total payroll? Hard to say for 2024 right now mid-offseason. Last year OD payroll was 14th overall, 3rd in the division. So middle of the pack despite playing in a city of six million, and the largest market that isn't split between multiple teams. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 21, 2023 10:27:39 GMT -6
Where do the Astros rank in the league total payroll? Hard to say for 2024 right now mid-offseason. Last year OD payroll was 14th overall, 3rd in the division. So middle of the pack despite playing in a city of six million, and the largest market that isn't split between multiple teams. Why does spotrac have it different? 7th in total payroll, and 2nd if you go by 26th man payroll www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2023/ |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 21, 2023 10:40:23 GMT -6
Where do the Astros rank in the league total payroll? Hard to say for 2024 right now mid-offseason. Last year OD payroll was 14th overall, 3rd in the division. So middle of the pack despite playing in a city of six million, and the largest market that isn't split between multiple teams. How does the farm rank? |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 18:29:00 GMT -6
Hard to say for 2024 right now mid-offseason. Last year OD payroll was 14th overall, 3rd in the division. So middle of the pack despite playing in a city of six million, and the largest market that isn't split between multiple teams. Why does spotrac have it different? 7th in total payroll, and 2nd if you go by 26th man payroll www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2023/I've been using Cot's for the longest, looks like they track differently. For example, it looks like Spotrac just adds up the total salaries of everyone on the active roster for their 26 man payroll. But that ends up hitting the Astros for the full $43.3 million that JV gets paid, despite the Astros only paying $18.3 million of that. It seems like Spotrac also doesn't make distinctions between guys who are not on the active roster (like McCullers for Houston, for example). I do like some of the breakdowns that Spotrac has though. The Mets had $158 million they owed to players not on their roster anymore, which is more than the total payrolls of half the other teams! |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 18:32:45 GMT -6
Hard to say for 2024 right now mid-offseason. Last year OD payroll was 14th overall, 3rd in the division. So middle of the pack despite playing in a city of six million, and the largest market that isn't split between multiple teams. How does the farm rank? It varies from publication to publication, but it's bad. Some already had us dead-last before we sold Gilbert and Clifford to the Mets. MLB.com and Bleacher Report both had us 30th, Fangraphs had us 29th just ahead of the Angels. I would be stunned if we were outside the bottom five on any ranking heading into the season. |
|
|
|
Post by bearbryant on Dec 21, 2023 18:53:23 GMT -6
Framber's such a crucial part of the staff workload, I have trouble believing Crane wouldn't veto someone's trade proposal for him if things got serious. He'll argue it makes no sense to pull him out of the rotation when multiple starters went down last year with injuries, and he'll have a point
|
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 21, 2023 20:18:50 GMT -6
Framber's such a crucial part of the staff workload, I have trouble believing Crane wouldn't veto someone's trade proposal for him if things got serious. He'll argue it makes no sense to pull him out of the rotation when multiple starters went down last year with injuries, and he'll have a point How do you expect them to inject more life into the farm system without trading stars? Crane has made it clear that he won’t give a post-team control market contract for somewhat young stars outside of Altuve. Letting stars go for nothing solves nothing, which is likely what’s going to happen with Valdez, Bregman, and Tucker. |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 22:24:25 GMT -6
Framber's such a crucial part of the staff workload, I have trouble believing Crane wouldn't veto someone's trade proposal for him if things got serious. He'll argue it makes no sense to pull him out of the rotation when multiple starters went down last year with injuries, and he'll have a point How do you expect them to inject more life into the farm system without trading stars? Crane has made it clear that he won’t give a post-team control market contract for somewhat young stars outside of Altuve. Letting stars go for nothing solves nothing, which is likely what’s going to happen with Valdez, Bregman, and Tucker. You really can't even say "outside of Altuve" when you look back at his extensions. The first one just covered his years until free agency and paid him $12.5 million total for those four years! His current deal is paying him less than $24 million AAV. He signed it in Spring Training after he won the 2017 MVP and was still 27 years old at the time, so he absolutely would have gotten more than that on the open market (probably $300 million over 10 years or even more). Unless I'm forgetting someone, there's really not a single deal you can point to where Crane paid full market value to someone of real significance for more than 2-3 years. Maybe McCullers sorta counts? Not sure if he would have gotten a whole lot more on the open market. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Dec 21, 2023 22:32:39 GMT -6
Dodgers sign Yama to a huge deal. They're desperate to do more than their 2020 participation trophy.
|
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 21, 2023 22:54:31 GMT -6
Dodgers sign Yama to a huge deal. They're desperate to do more than their 2020 participation trophy. I wish the Astros had some news. |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Dec 21, 2023 23:15:25 GMT -6
Dodgers sign Yama to a huge deal. They're desperate to do more than their 2020 participation trophy. $325 million over 12 years + $50 million posting fee. Largest contract ever given to a pitcher...and said pitcher has never pitched in MLB! |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 22, 2023 3:00:50 GMT -6
Dodgers sign Yama to a huge deal. They're desperate to do more than their 2020 participation trophy. $325 million over 12 years + $50 million posting fee. Largest contract ever given to a pitcher...and said pitcher has never pitched in MLB! Yowzer |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 22, 2023 8:12:02 GMT -6
$325 million over 12 years + $50 million posting fee. Largest contract ever given to a pitcher...and said pitcher has never pitched in MLB! Yowzer I’m sorry, man. Your dream is over. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 22, 2023 8:32:36 GMT -6
I’m sorry, man. Your dream is over. Yeah, Astros were never in the discussions. But even if they were, no way Crane would fork over the biggest contract ever to a pitcher, let alone, one who has never pitched in the MLB. Dodgers went Ludicrous spending this offseason. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 22, 2023 8:36:55 GMT -6
I’m sorry, man. Your dream is over. Astros shouldn’t trade Valdez until the trade deadline, and then, only if, they are not in contention. At that point, if Bregman is not extended, he too should be traded. Tucker maybe next offseason. This is if the Astros are not contenders. |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 22, 2023 8:42:21 GMT -6
I’m sorry, man. Your dream is over. Astros shouldn’t trade Valdez until the trade deadline, and then, only if, they are not in contention. At that point, if Bregman is not extended, he too should be traded. Tucker maybe next offseason. This is if the Astros are not contenders. The clock is ticking. Each delay lowers his value. |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 22, 2023 8:43:24 GMT -6
I’m sorry, man. Your dream is over. Yeah, Astros were never in the discussions. But even if they were, no way Crane would fork over the biggest contract ever to a pitcher, let alone, one who has never pitched in the MLB. Dodgers went Ludicrous spending this offseason. Crane can barely even keep his own players. There was 0% chance he could sign Yamamoto, especially since the only foreigners they seem to target is Cubans. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 22, 2023 8:54:01 GMT -6
Yeah, Astros were never in the discussions. But even if they were, no way Crane would fork over the biggest contract ever to a pitcher, let alone, one who has never pitched in the MLB. Dodgers went Ludicrous spending this offseason. Crane can barely even keep his own players. There was 0% chance he could sign Yamamoto, especially since the only foreigners they seem to target is Cubans. Houston is way more Latino than Asian, especially than Japanese. They have their way, Astros have theirs. LA is going to market the crap out of Ohtani and Yamamoto, and actually, so is the MLB. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Dec 22, 2023 9:14:31 GMT -6
*If the Astros are not in true playoff contention by the 2024 trade deadline, the Astros should put Valdez on the trade block.
If Valdez is pitching like a Cy Young candidate, then he could be going to the Phillies, for a package of Painter + other players/prospects, or to the Blue Hays for Tiedemann +other players/prospects.
|
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 22, 2023 9:16:08 GMT -6
*If the Astros are not in true playoff contention by the 2024 trade deadline, the Astros should put Valdez on the trade block. If Valdez is pitching like a Cy Young candidate, then he could be going to the Phillies, for a package of Painter + other players/prospects, or to the Blue Hays for Tiedemann +other players/prospects. I think they should trade him soon but ask for very solid prospects in return. By the deadline, I don’t feel teams would give up more. |
|
|
|
Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Dec 22, 2023 9:45:20 GMT -6
*If the Astros are not in true playoff contention by the 2024 trade deadline, the Astros should put Valdez on the trade block. If Valdez is pitching like a Cy Young candidate, then he could be going to the Phillies, for a package of Painter + other players/prospects, or to the Blue Hays for Tiedemann +other players/prospects. I think they should trade him soon but ask for very solid prospects in return. By the deadline, I don’t feel teams would give up more. If he sucks as bad as you and Ash say he does, why do you think anyone would pay good prospects for him? |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Dec 22, 2023 9:51:37 GMT -6
I think they should trade him soon but ask for very solid prospects in return. By the deadline, I don’t feel teams would give up more. If he sucks as bad as you and Ash say he does, why do you think anyone would pay good prospects for him? He doesn’t suck. That’s why teams are interested in him. Crane isn’t going to spend more and will trade prospects for more veterans. What other solutions are available for the future? |
|
