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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2019 12:16:02 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. You make a good point, but did anyone, I mean anyone think Charlie had this kind of year left in him? Plus how will he be fatigue wise come October? |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 1, 2019 12:18:00 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. exactly |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 1, 2019 12:19:39 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. Morton is all hindsight. He was older and had one successful sustained run in a season. Where was he toward the end of last season? Oh yeah, injured. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 1, 2019 12:35:11 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. Morton is all hindsight. He was older and had one successful sustained run in a season. Where was he toward the end of last season? Oh yeah, injured. Where is he now.............with the Rays with a 12-3 record and a 2.73 ERA. 1.074 WHIP,.136 IP and 165 K's...........I am glad we got Greinke but Morton bas better overall numbers. Greinke has a slightly better WHIP/ Do Greinke, Sanchez. and Biagini join us today in Cleveland? |
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Post by thomasj13 on Aug 1, 2019 12:50:40 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. Morton was cheaper...but Luhnow has shown in the past he does not like to play high stakes gambling with pitchers with arm issues...He initially signed Morton on a cheaper deal, when the Astros were not close to the luxury cap....this time around Morton was not going to be as cheap, the team was better, had supposedly top pitching prospects that could be apart of the rotation...plus, Morton was showing signs of declining towards the end of 2018....Despite that I thought re-signing Morton was a no-brainer, I liked Sherwin's idea of putting him in the bullpen....even though it hasn't shown so far, I trust Luhnow if he didn't think it was a good idea, it stands greatly when it all said and done, he had the right intuition. |
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Post by olpapa on Aug 1, 2019 13:10:26 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton for less than Grienke is getting, none of this stunning trade talk would have happened. I applaud Luhnow but Morton was cheaper and helped win a WS. You make a good point, but did anyone, I mean anyone think Charlie had this kind of year left in him? Plus how will he be fatigue wise come October? Exactly. I will reserve judgement until October on the issue of how smart was it to not re-sign Morton. This team was going to make the playoffs with of without Morton. What really matters is whether or not Morton would have been available in the playoffs. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 1, 2019 13:49:54 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton and then Morton blew a tire as he has done many times in his career, everybody would be bitching.
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 1, 2019 21:49:44 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton and then Morton blew a tire as he has done many times in his career, everybody would be bitching. This. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Aug 1, 2019 22:05:18 GMT -6
If he had signed Morton and then Morton blew a tire as he has done many times in his career, everybody would be bitching. This. And before that 3 year contract is done, TB is going to regret signing him. |
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marshall
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Post by marshall on Aug 2, 2019 1:45:18 GMT -6
And before that 3 year contract is done, TB is going to regret signing him. I hope not, but injury risk is part of the evaluation. Expecting it and wanting it are different. |
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Post by churchill on Aug 4, 2019 6:06:24 GMT -6
Plus he has to either re-sign or replace about 6 upcoming FA's, including Chirenos. His trades have replaced McHugh and Miley and possibly Chirenos if he wants to roll with Maldonado/Stubbs next year. Unless he cuts some bigger contracts (Yuli, Reddick), he'll be over the cap. I don't think he's going to be able to manipulate another 28-30 mil for Cole, and even if he did, how does he plan to pay Correa/Springer? Be interesting to see. Yep, this team would have been a challenge for payroll even without the deadline trades. I think the projection on BBref does estimate the bump the arb guys are likely to get but I dunno how accurate that is for guys like Correa and Springer. Especially if they want to extend them. Luhnow may have been given the go-ahead to exceed the threshold. But we won't know that until we see what happens this winter. deferred money mat reduce the actual payroll, but it does nothing with regards to the luxury tax. The Luxury tax is calculated by dividing the total amount of the contract by the number of years: the Average Annual value V (AAV) |
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Post by astrosfan34 on Aug 4, 2019 19:38:43 GMT -6
A random Jay's fan's reaction to the Sanchez/Biagini/Sevenson for Fisher trade. Pretty funny.
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Post by m240 on Aug 5, 2019 7:18:01 GMT -6
Kind of long but the guy is obviously not happy. And that was before the no-hitter. Wonder what he is saying to day after the no hitter and the oh I guess I should of looked knock in the face.
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Post by abregmanfan on Aug 5, 2019 8:12:33 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 9:18:02 GMT -6
Wow, Like I have always said..... Some of the best trades you make are the ones that don't happen, |
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Post by abregmanfan on Aug 5, 2019 9:58:22 GMT -6
Wow, Like I have always said..... Some of the best trades you make are the ones that don't happen, True... |
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marshall
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Post by marshall on Aug 5, 2019 10:13:07 GMT -6
As far as Cap is concerned, it has to be accounted for in a specific manner. But since we're paying $57 through the 2021 season, it should be close to $7M (partial season), $25M, $25M. It shifts according to MLB accounting, but the total should not reflect the money Arizona included in the trade. It could be $13M, $22M, $22M or anything in between. The greater the amount for 2019, the better up to the cap threshold.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Aug 5, 2019 10:15:44 GMT -6
Why do we have to keep repeating that the cap is based on AAV?
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Post by blcoach8 on Aug 5, 2019 11:09:11 GMT -6
Wow, Like I have always said..... Some of the best trades you make are the ones that don't happen, We can all be glad that didn't happen. |
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marshall
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Post by marshall on Aug 5, 2019 11:31:46 GMT -6
Why do we have to keep repeating that the cap is based on AAV? Because it's not as simple as you think it is. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 5, 2019 11:43:05 GMT -6
Put me down as one who thinks this may be BS. GMs discuss all sorts of deals and permutations and "what-ifs". My guess is the conversation went something like this: Luhnow "I'll trade players x,y and z for Fullmer." Avila: "No, I want Bregman + whoever". Luhnow: "LOL for Bregman, you'd have to include Fullmer, Wilson and other pieces". I'm sure they discussed what it would take to land Bregman, but I doubt an actual offer was made. We've even heard hindsight rumors that Houston offered Bagwell early in his career and I'm sure he was discussed. Discussing a player and offering a player are two different things. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 5, 2019 11:44:25 GMT -6
Why do we have to keep repeating that the cap is based on AAV? Because it's not as simple as you think it is. I asked for an explanation a couple of days ago. Please enlighten us. |
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Post by olpapa on Aug 5, 2019 16:12:14 GMT -6
Because it's not as simple as you think it is. I asked for an explanation a couple of days ago. Please enlighten us. This explanation from Roster Resource should make the Luxury Tax and AAV as clear as mud: LUXURY TAX EXPLANATION AND OTHER PAYROLL NOTES 1. There are three luxury tax levels for 2019, all of which may be exceeded by a club with varying penalty: $206MM, $226MM, and $246MM. 2. The average annual value (AAV) of guaranteed contracts is included, not what the player is actually being paid that year. The AAV of contracts with deferrals is lower due to the payout structure and is based on the inflation rate stated in the contract, but since that varies from contract to contract, the AAV is calculated as it would be without deferrals. 3. Other payments such as money to and from other teams is included. Buyouts of contract options are not included. 4. Players no longer on the 40-man roster are included in all cases, regardless of whether they were optioned or released (this was changed for the current CBA). 5. Salaries for all players on the 40-man roster, even salaries earned while in the minor leagues, are included. 6. Player benefits include health insurance, transportation, meal money, and other non-salary payments for all 40-man roster players. 7. The "estimated salaries for players not yet eligible for arbitration" figure (which is included in luxury tax and "actual" payroll) presumes that, when factoring DL time, each team will need to pay for 32 player-seasons over the course of the regular season. This number is calculated by subtracting the number of guaranteed and arbitration-year contracts from 32 (the number of player-seasons) and then multiplying the number that remains (typically around 10-15) by the league minimum salary. 8. The league minimum salary for 2019 is $555K; the league minimum salaries for 2020 and 2021 (the last two seasons covered by the current Collective Bargaining Agreement) have not yet been determined. |
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Post by talshill on Aug 5, 2019 17:24:10 GMT -6
I asked for an explanation a couple of days ago. Please enlighten us. This explanation from Roster Resource should make the Luxury Tax and AAV as clear as mud: LUXURY TAX EXPLANATION AND OTHER PAYROLL NOTES 1. There are three luxury tax levels for 2019, all of which may be exceeded by a club with varying penalty: $206MM, $226MM, and $246MM. 2. The average annual value (AAV) of guaranteed contracts is included, not what the player is actually being paid that year. The AAV of contracts with deferrals is lower due to the payout structure and is based on the inflation rate stated in the contract, but since that varies from contract to contract, the AAV is calculated as it would be without deferrals. 3. Other payments such as money to and from other teams is included. Buyouts of contract options are not included. 4. Players no longer on the 40-man roster are included in all cases, regardless of whether they were optioned or released (this was changed for the current CBA). 5. Salaries for all players on the 40-man roster, even salaries earned while in the minor leagues, are included. 6. Player benefits include health insurance, transportation, meal money, and other non-salary payments for all 40-man roster players. 7. The "estimated salaries for players not yet eligible for arbitration" figure (which is included in luxury tax and "actual" payroll) presumes that, when factoring DL time, each team will need to pay for 32 player-seasons over the course of the regular season. This number is calculated by subtracting the number of guaranteed and arbitration-year contracts from 32 (the number of player-seasons) and then multiplying the number that remains (typically around 10-15) by the league minimum salary. 8. The league minimum salary for 2019 is $555K; the league minimum salaries for 2020 and 2021 (the last two seasons covered by the current Collective Bargaining Agreement) have not yet been determined. I had read that before. I agree that it leaves room for questions, but it seems to reinforce the idea that a team cannot accelerate $ from a current year cap to reduce a future cap hit. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 18:04:08 GMT -6
Put me down as one who thinks this may be BS. GMs discuss all sorts of deals and permutations and "what-ifs". My guess is the conversation went something like this: Luhnow "I'll trade players x,y and z for Fullmer." Avila: "No, I want Bregman + whoever". Luhnow: "LOL for Bregman, you'd have to include Fullmer, Wilson and other pieces". I'm sure they discussed what it would take to land Bregman, but I doubt an actual offer was made. We've even heard hindsight rumors that Houston offered Bagwell early in his career and I'm sure he was discussed. Discussing a player and offering a player are two different things. I still remember the Marlins asking for Correa in exchange for Stanton. Glad we dodged that bullet and there's no way in hell the Astros would have offered him that kind of contract he later got. |
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Post by m240 on Aug 5, 2019 18:29:35 GMT -6
This explanation from Roster Resource should make the Luxury Tax and AAV as clear as mud: LUXURY TAX EXPLANATION AND OTHER PAYROLL NOTES 1. There are three luxury tax levels for 2019, all of which may be exceeded by a club with varying penalty: $206MM, $226MM, and $246MM. 2. The average annual value (AAV) of guaranteed contracts is included, not what the player is actually being paid that year. The AAV of contracts with deferrals is lower due to the payout structure and is based on the inflation rate stated in the contract, but since that varies from contract to contract, the AAV is calculated as it would be without deferrals. 3. Other payments such as money to and from other teams is included. Buyouts of contract options are not included. 4. Players no longer on the 40-man roster are included in all cases, regardless of whether they were optioned or released (this was changed for the current CBA). 5. Salaries for all players on the 40-man roster, even salaries earned while in the minor leagues, are included. 6. Player benefits include health insurance, transportation, meal money, and other non-salary payments for all 40-man roster players. 7. The "estimated salaries for players not yet eligible for arbitration" figure (which is included in luxury tax and "actual" payroll) presumes that, when factoring DL time, each team will need to pay for 32 player-seasons over the course of the regular season. This number is calculated by subtracting the number of guaranteed and arbitration-year contracts from 32 (the number of player-seasons) and then multiplying the number that remains (typically around 10-15) by the league minimum salary. 8. The league minimum salary for 2019 is $555K; the league minimum salaries for 2020 and 2021 (the last two seasons covered by the current Collective Bargaining Agreement) have not yet been determined. I had read that before. I agree that it leaves room for questions, but it seems to reinforce the idea that a team cannot accelerate $ from a current year cap to reduce a future cap hit. It looks like the last 10 words on item 2 was where my error was. Also it looks like whether we like to or not 7 guys at league minimum have to be calculated into the decision making process. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 18:42:05 GMT -6
I think I got this Luxury Tax thing down now.............  |
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Post by olpapa on Aug 5, 2019 20:34:43 GMT -6
This explanation from Roster Resource should make the Luxury Tax and AAV as clear as mud: LUXURY TAX EXPLANATION AND OTHER PAYROLL NOTES 2..... The AAV of contracts with deferrals is lower due to the payout structure and is based on the inflation rate stated in the contract, but since that varies from contract to contract, the AAV is calculated as it would be without deferrals. I had read that before. I agree that it leaves room for questions, but it seems to reinforce the idea that a team cannot accelerate $ from a current year cap to reduce a future cap hit. How do you interpret this wording in paragraph #2? Doesn’t make sense to me. Unless I’m missing something, it seems like it contradicts itself. Does this wording in #2 mean that you can reduce AAV by making deferred payments in future years? |
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Post by m240 on Aug 6, 2019 7:25:28 GMT -6
I had read that before. I agree that it leaves room for questions, but it seems to reinforce the idea that a team cannot accelerate $ from a current year cap to reduce a future cap hit. How do you interpret this wording in paragraph #2? Doesn’t make sense to me. Unless I’m missing something, it seems like it contradicts itself. Does this wording in #2 mean that you can reduce AAV by making deferred payments in future years? The bottom line to all of this is that none of us will be structuring contracts to avoid luxury tax considerations and Crane/Luhnow seem to be willing to dance along the edge of the tax to keep us at the top of the power curve. This is a great place and an usual place for us to be. So again bottom line is that if there is a way to sign Cole that makes long term and short term, then it will be done. |
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Post by koolade2 on Aug 6, 2019 17:28:15 GMT -6
"The bottom line to all of this is that none of us will be structuring contracts to avoid luxury tax considerations and Crane/Luhnow seem to be willing to dance along the edge of the tax to keep us at the top of the power curve. This is a great place and an usual place for us to be. So again bottom line is that if there is a way to sign Cole that makes long term and short term, then it will be done."
Staying above the Power Curve. Since Crane bought the Astros how much has the value go up. Especially after the World Series Win, how much did that improve the Bottom Line of the Team. Crane seems to be a smart business Man and I think as long as the team continues to increase the value and the team making money he will continue to Spend on the team. The more the team win the more People spend on the Team it is a Given. I might not be able to attend games from Long Island but I do buy Astros merchandise and wear it to annoy the local Yankee Fans to no end. Same way with Giant Fan when I wear my Cowboy stuff it drives them nuts but their are a lot more Cowboy fans up here than Astros Fans. Though here I live near Smithtown which was Biggo's home I find a few more.
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