|
|
Post by bearbryant on Sept 28, 2021 11:55:10 GMT -6
Despite everyone wanting to nail the Astros, there was no sign-stealing in 2019. Lying, dishonest Yankee fans are the only ones who say that
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 11:57:48 GMT -6
A. Where is Bregman's MVP? Haven't you said he deserved it over Trout in 2019? So that point is dumb. B. Caminiti's MVP was during a steroid-riddled season. Hardly makes it a fair comparison. Unless you're saying that you're totally cool with Bonds, Sosa, etc. Are you saying they're all legit? C. I watched Caminiti play. Great arm. He didn't have the range that Bregman does. Which is why Bregman can even play SS respectably. D. I never mentioned Cammy's drug use. I'm comparing their performances as an Astro 3B. One was a very solid all-around player. One has been elite (when healthy). 1. When I said Bregman deserved the MVP in 2019 that was BEFORE the sign scandal ever broke. I was not the only one who said it. 2. Bregman's numbers in 2019 were during a season which has been tainted by the sign stealing scandal. I never said Bonds, Sosa, etc. were legal. They were all guilty just as some are who never were charged with using steroids. 3. Caminiti made some plays and made throws that Bregman could not begin to make. Bregman was a SS converted to a third baseman. His range is not what it was before his leg issues. 4. Caminiti's drug usage was no secret and he admitted it. He was an elite third baseman. Bregman WAS an elite defensive third baseman whose range has declined. Everyone seems to want to ignore Bregman's decline over the last two seasons. Maybe he can get back to where he was. If he can, I'd take him over Caminiti in a heartbeat. 1. No reports have them cheating in 2019. None at all. 2. So then Cammy's MVP doesn't mean anything since he used steroids like those others, right? 3. His defense is considered well above-average at 3B even with his hamstring issues. I could post the numbers comparing the two, but you'll just find a way to argue it anyways. 4. I don't give a f*ck about his drug use. It has nothing to do with the debate. Even with his "decline" you tell me which of these Astros had the better Astros career: Player A:.283/.379/.510 .889 OPS 139 OPS+ 116 HR 395 RBI 417 Runs 26.2 WAR 2x AS 1x SS Player B:.260/.319/.386 .705 OPS 98 OPS+ 75 HR 445 RBI 409 Runs 13.9 WAR 98 1x AS |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Sept 28, 2021 11:58:02 GMT -6
This damn crap of rewording my posts or posts of others needs to stop. I don't need a clown rewriting my posts. Caminiti was a drug addict and it cost him his life. But, I never called him a drug addict in my post. His being a drug addict has nothing to do with the FACT that he was a much better third baseman and hitter than Breggie no matter how many here choose to say otherwise. You do have a point there. |
|
|
|
Post by bearbryant on Sept 28, 2021 12:34:41 GMT -6
So, since you disagree with my assessment of how Bregman and Caminiti played third base, I'm a clown. LMAO Ken Caminiti was an elite third baseman. His being a drug addict has nothing to do with his ability to play the position. I stated FACTS regarding Caminiti's accomplishments during his career. If you doubt them, look them up. Caminiti did, in fact, admit to steroid usage. Many of the current Astro players were involved in a sign-stealing scandal which lead many to doubt the authenticity of our WS title. MLB found the Astros organization guilty of stealing signs....NO INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS were exonerated or convicted. It was a TEAM verdict. Yet, we have some people who convicted Marwin, Marisnick, Springer, etc. while claiming that Altuve and others were innocent when there is NO proof of their innocence just as there is no proof of the guilt of others. We want to include the fact that Caminiti used steroids to boost his career run production which is a valid point. If so, it is also a valid point to conclude that Bregman and others benefitted from sign stealing. The decline in his numbers seem to indicate that Bregman was one of the top benefactors of the sign stealing. Could be that his power and run production went out in the trash cans we no longer hear banging. The point here is to not hang Caminiti for cheating by using steroids while exonerating Bregman from benefitting from sign stealing. If steroids helped Caminiti boost his numbers, and, no doubt that was the case, then, it is safe to say that Bregman used the sign stealing to inflate his numbers. Choosing to claim that any player on the roster during the sign stealing years are totally innocent is wrong. I don't care if some teammates said Jose, Reddick, Kemp, or anyone else was innocent. There is nothing to prove it. The numbers of both Bregman and Altuve have been in decline since the scandal broke. I am not posting this to blast either of them....just to point out what numbers indicate. Each of us is entitled to our own opinions regarding any player's performance. The fact that someone else disagrees doesn't mean the poster is wrong or being a clown. In my opinion, using Bonds, Sosa and McGwire to defend Caminiti's years in San Diego is clownish. Three losers who aren't getting into the HOF cause they lied about PED use. You left Palmeiro off your list btw
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 13:21:58 GMT -6
Bregman's numbers "in decline" are still better than Cammy's.
|
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 14:26:08 GMT -6
1. When I said Bregman deserved the MVP in 2019 that was BEFORE the sign scandal ever broke. I was not the only one who said it. 2. Bregman's numbers in 2019 were during a season which has been tainted by the sign stealing scandal. I never said Bonds, Sosa, etc. were legal. They were all guilty just as some are who never were charged with using steroids. 3. Caminiti made some plays and made throws that Bregman could not begin to make. Bregman was a SS converted to a third baseman. His range is not what it was before his leg issues. 4. Caminiti's drug usage was no secret and he admitted it. He was an elite third baseman. Bregman WAS an elite defensive third baseman whose range has declined. Everyone seems to want to ignore Bregman's decline over the last two seasons. Maybe he can get back to where he was. If he can, I'd take him over Caminiti in a heartbeat. 1. No reports have them cheating in 2019. None at all. 2. So then Cammy's MVP doesn't mean anything since he used steroids like those others, right? 3. His defense is considered well above-average at 3B even with his hamstring issues. I could post the numbers comparing the two, but you'll just find a way to argue it anyways. 4. I don't give a f*ck about his drug use. It has nothing to do with the debate. Even with his "decline" you tell me which of these Astros had the better Astros career: Player A:.283/.379/.510 .889 OPS 139 OPS+ 116 HR 395 RBI 417 Runs 26.2 WAR 2x AS 1x SS Player B:.260/.319/.386 .705 OPS 98 OPS+ 75 HR 445 RBI 409 Runs 13.9 WAR 98 1x AS So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs. When I held out saying I thought they were guilty, I was laughed at and told the evidence was there to show they were stealing signs by use of illegal cameras in CF, banging on trash cans, and, players wearing buzzers. MLB found them guilty. I always said we were no more guilty of cheating than the Yankees, Dodgers, or anyone else. Yet, we were made the scapegoats and got hammered. If we hadn't eliminated the Red Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers all three, we would not have received the stiff penalties we got if we were even found guilty at all. I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres. He was much better with them than he was with us. Kudos to you for going to the stats and using nothing but them to try to prove your point. You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues. He showed up to ST with them this season and they have nagged him continuously which leads us to wonder what he did in the off season to be sure he showed up 100% healthy. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 14:28:12 GMT -6
Bregman's numbers "in decline" are still better than Cammy's. If Bregman goes back to his performance prior to 2020 and 2021, I will gladly agree with you. Right now, he is a shell of his former self. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 14:31:50 GMT -6
So, since you disagree with my assessment of how Bregman and Caminiti played third base, I'm a clown. LMAO Ken Caminiti was an elite third baseman. His being a drug addict has nothing to do with his ability to play the position. I stated FACTS regarding Caminiti's accomplishments during his career. If you doubt them, look them up. Caminiti did, in fact, admit to steroid usage. Many of the current Astro players were involved in a sign-stealing scandal which lead many to doubt the authenticity of our WS title. MLB found the Astros organization guilty of stealing signs....NO INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS were exonerated or convicted. It was a TEAM verdict. Yet, we have some people who convicted Marwin, Marisnick, Springer, etc. while claiming that Altuve and others were innocent when there is NO proof of their innocence just as there is no proof of the guilt of others. We want to include the fact that Caminiti used steroids to boost his career run production which is a valid point. If so, it is also a valid point to conclude that Bregman and others benefitted from sign stealing. The decline in his numbers seem to indicate that Bregman was one of the top benefactors of the sign stealing. Could be that his power and run production went out in the trash cans we no longer hear banging. The point here is to not hang Caminiti for cheating by using steroids while exonerating Bregman from benefitting from sign stealing. If steroids helped Caminiti boost his numbers, and, no doubt that was the case, then, it is safe to say that Bregman used the sign stealing to inflate his numbers. Choosing to claim that any player on the roster during the sign stealing years are totally innocent is wrong. I don't care if some teammates said Jose, Reddick, Kemp, or anyone else was innocent. There is nothing to prove it. The numbers of both Bregman and Altuve have been in decline since the scandal broke. I am not posting this to blast either of them....just to point out what numbers indicate. Each of us is entitled to our own opinions regarding any player's performance. The fact that someone else disagrees doesn't mean the poster is wrong or being a clown. In my opinion, using Bonds, Sosa and McGwire to defend Caminiti's years in San Diego is clownish. Three losers who aren't getting into the HOF cause they lied about PED use. You left Palmeiro off your list btw
Camniti's drug usage was brought up so I brought up those names. Clemens has also been accused of steroid usage and there was talk of Bagwell using them. I never bought the crap about Bagwell. I was not "defending" Caminiti's drug usage and I will never defend him or anyone else for using them. His years in San Diego were the best of his career with or without the steroids. Bregman is an outstanding third baseman who has been on the decline for two years. If he can managed to get totally healthy this off season and take care of himself, there is no reason he can't have a breakout season in 2022. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 14:34:31 GMT -6
1. No reports have them cheating in 2019. None at all. 2. So then Cammy's MVP doesn't mean anything since he used steroids like those others, right? 3. His defense is considered well above-average at 3B even with his hamstring issues. I could post the numbers comparing the two, but you'll just find a way to argue it anyways. 4. I don't give a f*ck about his drug use. It has nothing to do with the debate. Even with his "decline" you tell me which of these Astros had the better Astros career: Player A:.283/.379/.510 .889 OPS 139 OPS+ 116 HR 395 RBI 417 Runs 26.2 WAR 2x AS 1x SS Player B:.260/.319/.386 .705 OPS 98 OPS+ 75 HR 445 RBI 409 Runs 13.9 WAR 98 1x AS So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs. When I held out saying I thought they were guilty, I was laughed at and told the evidence was there to show they were stealing signs by use of illegal cameras in CF, banging on trash cans, and, players wearing buzzers. MLB found them guilty. I always said we were no more guilty of cheating than the Yankees, Dodgers, or anyone else. Yet, we were made the scapegoats and got hammered. If we hadn't eliminated the Red Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers all three, we would not have received the stiff penalties we got if we were even found guilty at all. I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres. He was much better with them than he was with us. Kudos to you for going to the stats and using nothing but them to try to prove your point. You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues. He showed up to ST with them this season and they have nagged him continuously which leads us to wonder what he did in the off season to be sure he showed up 100% healthy. "So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs." You just keep not reading before you start arguing, don't you? You said Bregman cheated in 2019. They were punished for cheating in 2017 and part of 2018. The investigation by MLB said that there was nothing that indicated anything in 2019. The players consistently said they stopped during 2018. None of the punishment or findings from the investigation has anything to do with 2019. "I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres." No...the argument was who was the better ASTRO. NOT PADRE. But even with Caminiti's numbers with the Padres, Bregman has the far far superior rate stats so far in his career. Its not even close. "You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues." You answered your own question. Even with his "decline" since 2019, he has a 119 OPS+ over these last two seasons. That mean's he about a 19% better hitter than the average hitter in baseball over that time. An injured unhealthy Bregman is 19% better than the average hitter. That's actually pretty damn impressive. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 15:00:46 GMT -6
So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs. When I held out saying I thought they were guilty, I was laughed at and told the evidence was there to show they were stealing signs by use of illegal cameras in CF, banging on trash cans, and, players wearing buzzers. MLB found them guilty. I always said we were no more guilty of cheating than the Yankees, Dodgers, or anyone else. Yet, we were made the scapegoats and got hammered. If we hadn't eliminated the Red Sox, Yankees, and Dodgers all three, we would not have received the stiff penalties we got if we were even found guilty at all. I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres. He was much better with them than he was with us. Kudos to you for going to the stats and using nothing but them to try to prove your point. You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues. He showed up to ST with them this season and they have nagged him continuously which leads us to wonder what he did in the off season to be sure he showed up 100% healthy. "So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs." You just keep not reading before you start arguing, don't you? You said Bregman cheated in 2019. They were punished for cheating in 2017 and part of 2018. The investigation by MLB said that there was nothing that indicated anything in 2019. The players consistently said they stopped during 2018. None of the punishment or findings from the investigation has anything to do with 2019. "I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres." No...the argument was who was the better ASTRO. NOT PADRE. But even with Caminiti's numbers with the Padres, Bregman has the far far superior rate stats so far in his career. Its not even close. "You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues." You answered your own question. Even with his "decline" since 2019, he has a 119 OPS+ over these last two seasons. That mean's he about a 19% better hitter than the average hitter in baseball over that time. An injured unhealthy Bregman is 19% better than the average hitter. That's actually pretty damn impressive. The cheating scandal was not brought up until after the 2019 season so there is no way to conclude that the same things they said went on in 2017 and 2018 had suddenly ceased in 2019. My argument was that Caminiti was the better player. I didn't limit it to the Astros since most of his best years came with the Padres. I have also never claimed certain players were innocent of sign stealing when the Commissioner's office found the team guilty which means all players were found guilty, not just a handful. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Sept 28, 2021 15:26:31 GMT -6
"So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs." You just keep not reading before you start arguing, don't you? You said Bregman cheated in 2019. They were punished for cheating in 2017 and part of 2018. The investigation by MLB said that there was nothing that indicated anything in 2019. The players consistently said they stopped during 2018. None of the punishment or findings from the investigation has anything to do with 2019. "I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres." No...the argument was who was the better ASTRO. NOT PADRE. But even with Caminiti's numbers with the Padres, Bregman has the far far superior rate stats so far in his career. Its not even close. "You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues." You answered your own question. Even with his "decline" since 2019, he has a 119 OPS+ over these last two seasons. That mean's he about a 19% better hitter than the average hitter in baseball over that time. An injured unhealthy Bregman is 19% better than the average hitter. That's actually pretty damn impressive. The cheating scandal was not brought up until after the 2019 season so there is no way to conclude that the same things they said went on in 2017 and 2018 had suddenly ceased in 2019. My argument was that Caminiti was the better player. I didn't limit it to the Astros since most of his best years came with the Padres. I have also never claimed certain players were innocent of sign stealing when the Commissioner's office found the team guilty which means all players were found guilty, not just a handful. Beltran and Cora were gone in 2019. |
|
|
|
Post by olpapa on Sept 28, 2021 15:35:11 GMT -6
The MLB investigation concluded that the Astros cheated in 2017 by using a camera in CF and monitor near the dugout to steal signs and banging on trash cans to relay the stolen info to the batters. Everyone knows that in America you are guilty until proven innocent. It has not been proven that the Astros players are innocent of wearing buzzers, so they are all guilty of wearing buzzers also. It has not been proven that the Astros did not cheat in some way in 2019.... or 2020... or 2021 for that matter... so, obviously, they did cheat in 2019, 2020 and 2021.
Of course, it has not been proven that all of the other teams in MLB are innocent of cheating from 2017 - present. So; therefore, and in conclusion...., there can be no doubt whatsoever that every team in MLB did; in fact, cheat from 2017-present.
I rest my case.
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 15:48:41 GMT -6
"So, you are saying we weren't found guilty of cheating that cost us our top two draft picks two years in a row plus cost Hinch and Luhnow their jobs." You just keep not reading before you start arguing, don't you? You said Bregman cheated in 2019. They were punished for cheating in 2017 and part of 2018. The investigation by MLB said that there was nothing that indicated anything in 2019. The players consistently said they stopped during 2018. None of the punishment or findings from the investigation has anything to do with 2019. "I see you mistakenly omitted Caminiti's numbers from his days with the Padres." No...the argument was who was the better ASTRO. NOT PADRE. But even with Caminiti's numbers with the Padres, Bregman has the far far superior rate stats so far in his career. Its not even close. "You still haven't explained why the overall decline in Bregman's performance since 2019, More than likely it is related to his leg issues." You answered your own question. Even with his "decline" since 2019, he has a 119 OPS+ over these last two seasons. That mean's he about a 19% better hitter than the average hitter in baseball over that time. An injured unhealthy Bregman is 19% better than the average hitter. That's actually pretty damn impressive. The cheating scandal was not brought up until after the 2019 season so there is no way to conclude that the same things they said went on in 2017 and 2018 had suddenly ceased in 2019. My argument was that Caminiti was the better player. I didn't limit it to the Astros since most of his best years came with the Padres. I have also never claimed certain players were innocent of sign stealing when the Commissioner's office found the team guilty which means all players were found guilty, not just a handful. The cheating scandal came out after 2019. It had nothing to do with the 2019 season based on the findings of the investigation. If you just want to say they were cheating because nothing says they weren't, then you have to assume that Caminiti was cheating while he was with the Astros. Caminiti, in his prime, may have been a slightly better fielder, but it's barely at best. Bregman is far superior overall, even factoring in his "decline". I know you believe that. Because it doesn't suit your arguments. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 17:03:08 GMT -6
The cheating scandal was not brought up until after the 2019 season so there is no way to conclude that the same things they said went on in 2017 and 2018 had suddenly ceased in 2019. My argument was that Caminiti was the better player. I didn't limit it to the Astros since most of his best years came with the Padres. I have also never claimed certain players were innocent of sign stealing when the Commissioner's office found the team guilty which means all players were found guilty, not just a handful. The cheating scandal came out after 2019. It had nothing to do with the 2019 season based on the findings of the investigation. If you just want to say they were cheating because nothing says they weren't, then you have to assume that Caminiti was cheating while he was with the Astros. Caminiti, in his prime, may have been a slightly better fielder, but it's barely at best. Bregman is far superior overall, even factoring in his "decline". I know you believe that. Because it doesn't suit your arguments. I'm sure personalities and the fact Bregman was on a WS winner had nothing to do with it, either. LOL |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 17:04:11 GMT -6
The MLB investigation concluded that the Astros cheated in 2017 by using a camera in CF and monitor near the dugout to steal signs and banging on trash cans to relay the stolen info to the batters. Everyone knows that in America you are guilty until proven innocent. It has not been proven that the Astros players are innocent of wearing buzzers, so they are all guilty of wearing buzzers also. It has not been proven that the Astros did not cheat in some way in 2019.... or 2020... or 2021 for that matter... so, obviously, they did cheat in 2019, 2020 and 2021. Of course, it has not been proven that all of the other teams in MLB are innocent of cheating from 2017 - present. So; therefore, and in conclusion...., there can be no doubt whatsoever that every team in MLB did; in fact, cheat from 2017-present. I rest my case. I never have thought we cheated any more than any other team. The Yankees are the last organization that should accuse others of cheating. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 18:18:35 GMT -6
The cheating scandal came out after 2019. It had nothing to do with the 2019 season based on the findings of the investigation. If you just want to say they were cheating because nothing says they weren't, then you have to assume that Caminiti was cheating while he was with the Astros. Caminiti, in his prime, may have been a slightly better fielder, but it's barely at best. Bregman is far superior overall, even factoring in his "decline". I know you believe that. Because it doesn't suit your arguments. I'm sure personalities and the fact Bregman was on a WS winner had nothing to do with it, either. LOL Do with what?? |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 28, 2021 19:01:04 GMT -6
I'm sure personalities and the fact Bregman was on a WS winner had nothing to do with it, either. LOL Do with what?? Your biased opinion of Bregman. |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Sept 28, 2021 19:32:48 GMT -6
I liked Caminiti a lot, but the steroids thing was a major boost.
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 28, 2021 19:37:50 GMT -6
Your biased opinion of Bregman. So because I think Bregman is better (since all of the facts point to it) I'm biased because you think I like his personality? LMAO |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Sept 28, 2021 23:21:43 GMT -6
His being a drug addict has nothing to do with the FACT that he was a much better third baseman and hitter than Breggie no matter how many here choose to say otherwise. Caminiti was better on defense, but a better hitter? Honestly not even close (142 wRC+ for Bregman vs. 101 for Caminiti) Once he got roided up he went on a really nice offensive run outside Houston though; 95-2000 he was 141 wRC+, but his defense tanked. So it took the roids just to bring him to Bregman's level, really. |
|
|
|
Post by Ashitaka on Sept 28, 2021 23:26:49 GMT -6
Bregman's numbers "in decline" are still better than Cammy's. If Bregman goes back to his performance prior to 2020 and 2021, I will gladly agree with you. Right now, he is a shell of his former self. He's still more than 20% above league-average this year and last, despite injuries. He went from all-world MVP level to merely All-Star level. If you extrapolate his numbers to account for the missed playing time, he'd easily be a Top 5 3B this year if not for the injuries, and that's if he only continued to play at the level he has been, without improving back to his pre-2020 form. |
|
|
|
Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 29, 2021 11:33:44 GMT -6
 Another great thread derailed by a pissin' contest. Ugh! olpapa , any news from Sugar Land that will cause us all to smile? |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 29, 2021 11:35:35 GMT -6
Another great thread derailed by a pissin' contest. Ugh! olpapa , any news from Sugar Land that will cause us all to smile? You've participated in your fair share, sir! |
|
|
|
Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 29, 2021 11:51:55 GMT -6
You've participated in your fair share, sir! Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 29, 2021 11:52:46 GMT -6
You've participated in your fair share, sir! Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence. Overruled. |
|
|
|
Post by Hunter McCormick on Sept 29, 2021 11:57:37 GMT -6
Nice try. But the accuser is not the Judge and can not overrule. Cite examples or get back on topic, ***** |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 29, 2021 12:14:50 GMT -6
Nice try. But the accuser is not the Judge and can not overrule. Cite examples or get back on topic, ***** Too much work for not enough payoff. Carry on! |
|
|
|
Post by abregmanfan on Sept 29, 2021 12:16:01 GMT -6
You've participated in your fair share, sir! Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence. Order! |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Sept 29, 2021 14:02:14 GMT -6
Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence. Order! You're out of order....Two utes ... |
|
|
|
Post by olpapa on Sept 29, 2021 14:53:18 GMT -6
Wha frong witchu lovely chillren? Why you gottoo argur?
|
|
