Will there even BE a 2022 season?

[Hunter McCormick]

Nov 18, 2021 7:15:07 GMT -6 dafish said:

Not as optimistic.  From what I read, this has more of a "1994" feel to it than people want to admit.

If the principals want to play another high stakes game of chicken, it might be their last.   The game as we know it, may not survive another debacle like that. 

Thanks for bringing this back on-topic. udaman!

The 1994-1995 strike was particularly egregious. It started in August of 94 and there was no postseason, no WS. It wasn't settled until late April of 95 which had a shortened season of 144 games. In my opinion, 94 killed fan interest in baseball even more than the short season of 95. After watching baseball for more than half a season then having no championship, a LOT of fans said screw it! and never returned to baseball.

If the lockout affects part, or even all, of the 2022 season, I don't think it will impact the fans as much as 94 did but it will surely have some some effect.

[Hunter McCormick]

Less than nine days until lockout.

Tick ... tick ... tick ...

[ɮօʀȶǟʐ]

Do we know which issues are likely to cause the most strife?

[Hunter McCormick]

Nov 22, 2021 16:05:01 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Do we know which issues are likely to cause the most strife?

We know three of them.

1 - Money
2 - Money
3 - Money

[abregmanfan]

Nov 22, 2021 13:40:58 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

Less than nine days until lockout.

Tick ... tick ... tick ...

Lockout is such a dirty word.

[ɮօʀȶǟʐ]

Nov 22, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

Nov 22, 2021 16:05:01 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Do we know which issues are likely to cause the most strife?

We know three of them.

1 - Money
2 - Money
3 - Money

You giggled to yourself a little bit while posting this, didn't you?

[Hunter McCormick]

Nov 22, 2021 19:33:31 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Nov 22, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

We know three of them.

1 - Money
2 - Money
3 - Money

You giggled to yourself a little bit while posting this, didn't you?

You know me too well. 😀

[abregmanfan]

I bet there will be a dh in the NL next season. That would add payroll for the players. I know the players want to be able to hit free agency earlier than they currently are.

[churchill]

Nov 22, 2021 18:08:19 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

Nov 22, 2021 16:05:01 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Do we know which issues are likely to cause the most strife?

We know three of them.

1 - Money
2 - Money
3 - Moneyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds

[Hunter McCormick]

Nov 22, 2021 20:41:20 GMT -6 abregmanfan said:

I bet there will be a dh in the NL next season. That would add payroll for the players.

Not a sure thing but a good bet. It all depends on the NL team owners.

It doesn't necessarily add payroll per se. For instance the Astros have a DH who is still pre-arb (minimum wage). But it does provide an extended career path for big bat small glove players.

Nov 22, 2021 20:41:20 GMT -6 abregmanfan said:

I know the players want to be able to hit free agency earlier than they currently are.

They do.

One proposal I've heard from the MLBPA is to cut one year off the front of the player commitment so they reach arb after two years instead of three. Contrast that to the owners' proposal of free agency no sooner than age 29-1/2, regardless of service time. The compromise would be to retain the status quo.

They (MLBPA) are also 'concerned' about service time manipulation, although there doesn't seem to be a logical way to prevent that.

The MLBPA has also voiced concerns about 'tanking' but haven't said anything about how that might be prevented.

[Hunter McCormick]

CBA expires tonight at midnight.

Tick ... tick ... tick ...

Major League Baseball, players union no closer to deal with collective bargaining agreement set to expire, sources say

www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32758345/major-league-baseball-players-union-no-closer-deal-collective-bargaining-agreement-set-expire-sources-say

MLB Rumors: Owners 'Not Pleased' with Players' Latest Proposal Ahead of CBA's End

bleacherreport.com/articles/10019581-mlb-rumors-owners-not-pleased-with-players-latest-proposal-ahead-of-cbas-end

[Hunter McCormick]

No More Negotiations Scheduled Between Owners, Players Prior To CBA Expiration

2:04PM: This afternoon’s session between the two sides concluded after seven minutes, according to ESPN.com’s Jeff Passan (Twitter links). There won’t be any more negotiations today, and the lockout is expected to begin this evening once the current CBA officially expires.

Hot Stove season will cool off quickly.

[surfintexas]

Give the players what they want (shorter path to free agent eligibility) in exchange for a salary cap.

[Hunter McCormick]

Dec 2, 2021 4:06:47 GMT -6 surfintexas said:

Give the players what they want (shorter path to free agent eligibility) in exchange for a salary cap.

The players want a lot more than just the part you have in parentheses.

[Hunter McCormick]

FAQ on the CBA negotiations

Q: Why did MLB lock out the players?

A: Simply put, we believe that an offseason lockout is the best mechanism to protect the 2022 Championship Season. We hope that the lockout will jump-start the negotiations and get us to an agreement that will allow the season to start on time. This defensive lockout was necessary because the Players Association’s vision for Major League Baseball would threaten the ability of most teams to be competitive. It’s simply not a viable option. Yet, from the beginning, they have been unwilling to move from their starting position, compromise or collaborate on solutions.

To be clear: This does not necessarily mean games will be cancelled. In fact, we’re taking this step now because it accelerates the urgency for an agreement with as much runway as possible to avoid doing damage to the 2022 season. Delaying this process further would only put Spring Training, Opening Day and the rest of the season further at risk – and we cannot allow an expired agreement to again cause an in-season strike and a missed World Series, like we experienced in 1994. We all owe you, our fans, better than that.

There's a LOT more information in that link, but of course it's all from the perspective of the owners. I'll try to find an article somewhere that illuminates the MBLPA's side of things.

[Hunter McCormick]

Nov 22, 2021 20:41:20 GMT -6 abregmanfan said:

I bet there will be a dh in the NL next season. That would add payroll for the players. I know the players want to be able to hit free agency earlier than they currently are.

Hey brother, it looks like that was offered by MLB as part of their compromise to the players.

We offered to establish a minimum payroll for all clubs to meet for the first time in baseball history; to allow the majority of players to reach free agency earlier through an age-based system that would eliminate the Players Association’s concern about alleged “service-time manipulation”; and to increase compensation for younger players, including a historic increase to the minimum salary for players with one or two years of Major League service. In an attempt to spur negotiations towards an agreement, we told the Players Association that we were willing to extend the Designated Hitter to the National League; to create a new draft lottery system, similar to those employed by other leagues; and to increase the luxury-tax threshold that affects only a small number of teams.

www.mlb.com/news/cba-fan-faq

[bearbryant]

Dec 2, 2021 7:21:12 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

FAQ on the CBA negotiations

Q: Why did MLB lock out the players?

A: Simply put, we believe that an offseason lockout is the best mechanism to protect the 2022 Championship Season. We hope that the lockout will jump-start the negotiations and get us to an agreement that will allow the season to start on time. This defensive lockout was necessary because the Players Association’s vision for Major League Baseball would threaten the ability of most teams to be competitive. It’s simply not a viable option. Yet, from the beginning, they have been unwilling to move from their starting position, compromise or collaborate on solutions.

To be clear: This does not necessarily mean games will be cancelled. In fact, we’re taking this step now because it accelerates the urgency for an agreement with as much runway as possible to avoid doing damage to the 2022 season. Delaying this process further would only put Spring Training, Opening Day and the rest of the season further at risk – and we cannot allow an expired agreement to again cause an in-season strike and a missed World Series, like we experienced in 1994. We all owe you, our fans, better than that.

I'll try to find an article somewhere that illuminates the MBLPA's side of things.

Hopefully some light on the players' "vision" the league is calling unworkable and what that is precisely

[Hunter McCormick]

Dec 2, 2021 10:26:56 GMT -6 bearbryant said:

Hopefully some light on the players' "vision" the league is calling unworkable and what that is precisely

I wasn't able to find an article that lays out the entirety of the mlbpa's demands but here are some of them:

Here are a few items in the MLBPA's latest proposal, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers:

• Free agency at age 29 1/2 or after five years of service time, whichever comes first.
• Players become arbitration-eligible after two seasons rather than three.
• Expanded 12-team postseason with leagues realigned to two divisions each.
• Luxury-tax threshold raised from $210 million to $240 million.
• Advertising patches on uniforms.

www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-lockout-everything-to-know-about-baseballs-first-work-stoppage-since-1994-95/




As I understand it, the MLBPA also wants significant cuts in the revenue-sharing system and a higher minimum wage for pre-arb players. But I was unable to find an article that provides details on those, or on what they want MLB to do to prevent 'tanking'.

[Hunter McCormick]

Major League Portion Of Rule 5 Draft “Postponed Indefinitely”
www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/major-league-portion-of-rule-5-draft-canceled.html

It has NOT been 'canceled' at this time, although the longer the Lockout continues, the more likely it will eventually be canceled.

The Triple-A section of the draft will still take place as scheduled, however.

[bearbryant]

Dec 2, 2021 12:54:28 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

Dec 2, 2021 10:26:56 GMT -6 bearbryant said:

Hopefully some light on the players' "vision" the league is calling unworkable and what that is precisely

I wasn't able to find an article that lays out the entirety of the mlbpa's demands but here are some of them:

Here are a few items in the MLBPA's latest proposal, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers:

• Free agency at age 29 1/2 or after five years of service time, whichever comes first.
• Players become arbitration-eligible after two seasons rather than three.
• Expanded 12-team postseason with leagues realigned to two divisions each.
• Luxury-tax threshold raised from $210 million to $240 million.
• Advertising patches on uniforms.

www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-lockout-everything-to-know-about-baseballs-first-work-stoppage-since-1994-95/


As I understand it, the MLBPA also wants significant cuts in the revenue-sharing system and a higher minimum wage for pre-arb players. But I was unable to find an article that provides details on those, or on what they want MLB to do to prevent 'tanking'.

Not saying the league is right, but how can mid-market owners meet higher salary demands if they lose revenue from share-cutting

[thomasj13]

Dec 2, 2021 13:44:25 GMT -6 bearbryant said:

Dec 2, 2021 12:54:28 GMT -6 Hunter McCormick said:

I wasn't able to find an article that lays out the entirety of the mlbpa's demands but here are some of them:

www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-lockout-everything-to-know-about-baseballs-first-work-stoppage-since-1994-95/


As I understand it, the MLBPA also wants significant cuts in the revenue-sharing system and a higher minimum wage for pre-arb players. But I was unable to find an article that provides details on those, or on what they want MLB to do to prevent 'tanking'.

Not saying the league is right, but how can mid-market owners meet higher salary demands if they lose revenue from share-cutting

I am for revenue sharing, but there needs to be both a salary cap floor and ceiling.   So the smaller market teams are forced to spend they receive in revenue sharing

[Hunter McCormick]

Dec 2, 2021 13:44:25 GMT -6 bearbryant said:

Not saying the league is right, but how can mid-market owners meet higher salary demands if they lose revenue from share-cutting

I don't think mid-market teams would be severely affected but small-market teams surely would be. No doubt they'd be operating at a loss, even if their rosters consisted of only minimum wage players.

But the mlbpa doesn't give a shit about them. They want the big market teams to keep as much money as possible because they are willing to spend and drive up the top salaries.

F competitive balance or even the pale facsimile we currently have of that. Show them the money!

[olpapa]

Advertising patches on uniforms? Somehow I just can’t see MLB players running around the field looking like NASCAR drivers.

[olpapa]

Good article at MLBTR on the issue of the luxury tax:

www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/how-the-mlb-luxury-tax-thresholds-have-changed-by-year.html

[olpapa]

“Free agency at age 29 1/2 or after five years of service time, whichever comes first.”

Seems reasonable. Wouldn’t be surprised to see this in the next CBA.

[olpapa]

“Players become arbitration-eligible after two seasons rather than three.”

Will be surprised if the owners agree to this.

[olpapa]

“Expanded 12-team postseason with leagues realigned to two divisions each.”

Wouldn’t be surprised to see an increase in the number of playoff teams. Realignment? I don’t know. Maybe after the league expands by 2 teams.

[olpapa]

“Luxury-tax threshold raised from $210 million to $240 million.”

Wouldn’t be surprised to see them meet halfway. $225 million. That is probably what the MLBPA is shooting for.

[olpapa]

For the benefit of our younger members who have never known anything but millionaire players vs billionaire owners..., here is a very good presentation on just how far things have come since the 1960s:

www.mlbplayers.com/history

[olpapa]

In 1965, Koufax won 26 games and his second Cy Young Award in three years. He finished second to Willie Mays for the National League most-valuable-player award. The Dodgers paid Koufax $85,000 that season. Adjusted for inflation, that would be equivalent to $709,625 dollars today. Things have come a long way since 1965.