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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 11:06:08 GMT -6
US Government was a mere half-year class during my senior year, with the other half year being economics. They saved the classes about how our government and our economy work for the final year when everyone is asleep, and made them half as long as every other class. The government teacher was a big believer in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory and spent a lot of time on that; the economics teacher basically just told us to show up and turn things in and he'd pass us. I don't remember a single thing from either class except for that the government teacher swears he talked to a woman who witnessed Nixon, Bush sr., and several other major officials walk out of a room together talking about doing Kennedy in. That was 18 years ago and it was already that bad. Imagine how stunted and brainwashed the kids being churned out nowadays are. Until and including 1965 you had to take a Civics Class and Pass before you could get your Diploma. Starting 1966 no more Civics and they went to Social Studies which is a joke. That Class had to be taken in your Senior Year. Educating the young on how things are supposed to work in the nation that they world wants to come live in would prevent the activists from fundamentally changing the government/governed relationship. Seems to be working as intended. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 11:07:08 GMT -6
I don't believe anybody here is "abandoning" Altuve or wants him gone. Some people have rightly mentioned his defense not being as good in recent years, and some of us get concerned when he slumps. That's not in any way knocking what a fantastic player he has been for us. I think everybody here wants him to retire an Astro and go into the Hall with an Astros hat on.
That being said, if we get concerned, it's only because we can see the difference his presence and production has on the team. Our worst three seasons were his first three seasons with us. He was a solid, but not amazing player to that extent. Yes, he made the AS team in 2012, but that's really just because we were horrible but somebody had to represent us. Look at this:
2011-2013: Altuve is an overall average player. The Astros are horrible.
2014: Altuve's first dominant season. Suddenly the Astros are only a 70-90 team. Massive improvement.
2015-2019: Altuve is one of the most dominant offensive players in baseball. The Astros have a fantastic run of success during the regular season AND postseason. Including the 2017 WS where Altuve also wins the 2017 MVP for the season.
2020: Altuve has the worst season of his career. Astros fail to even be a .500 team. BUT, they make the playoffs and are a win away from the WS again. SEE: Altuve bounces back and hits .375 AVG with a 1.200+ OPS during the postseason.
2021-2022: Altuve is arguably again a top-10 offensive player in all of baseball. The Astros make back-to-back WS appearances and win another championship.
Heck, even just last year the team was only 10-11 when Altuve doesn't play. 10-11! With Altuve they had a winning percentage over .680. Without, under .500.
So if people worry when Altuve struggles, I would say it's for good reason. The team goes as Altuve goes. That's not a knock on Altuve. If anything it shows how important he has been. I'm not going to go back and do the research, but has there been a player in our franchise whose career trends so greatly match the team's performance? I can't think of any.
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Post by thomasj13 on Feb 8, 2023 11:23:56 GMT -6
I don't believe anybody here is "abandoning" Altuve or wants him gone. Some people have rightly mentioned his defense not being as good in recent years, and some of us get concerned when he slumps. That's not in any way knocking what a fantastic player he has been for us. I think everybody here wants him to retire an Astro and go into the Hall with an Astros hat on. That being said, if we get concerned, it's only because we can see the difference his presence and production has on the team. Our worst three seasons were his first three seasons with us. He was a solid, but not amazing player to that extent. Yes, he made the AS team in 2012, but that's really just because we were horrible but somebody had to represent us. Look at this: 2011-2013: Altuve is an overall average player. The Astros are horrible. 2014: Altuve's first dominant season. Suddenly the Astros are only a 70-90 team. Massive improvement. 2015-2019: Altuve is one of the most dominant offensive players in baseball. The Astros have a fantastic run of success during the regular season AND postseason. Including the 2017 WS where Altuve also wins the 2017 MVP for the season. 2020: Altuve has the worst season of his career. Astros fail to even be a .500 team. BUT, they make the playoffs and are a win away from the WS again. SEE: Altuve bounces back and hits .375 AVG with a 1.200+ OPS during the postseason. 2021-2022: Altuve is arguably again a top-10 offensive player in all of baseball. The Astros make back-to-back WS appearances and win another championship. Heck, even just last year the team was only 10-11 when Altuve doesn't play. 10-11! With Altuve they had a winning percentage over .680. Without, under .500. So if people worry when Altuve struggles, I would say it's for good reason. The team goes as Altuve goes. That's not a knock on Altuve. If anything it shows how important he has been. I'm not going to go back and do the research, but has there been a player in our franchise whose career trends so greatly match the team's performance? I can't think of any. Tanner Bushue, he sucked when the team sucked. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 11:29:14 GMT -6
I don't believe anybody here is "abandoning" Altuve or wants him gone. Some people have rightly mentioned his defense not being as good in recent years, and some of us get concerned when he slumps. That's not in any way knocking what a fantastic player he has been for us. I think everybody here wants him to retire an Astro and go into the Hall with an Astros hat on. That being said, if we get concerned, it's only because we can see the difference his presence and production has on the team. Our worst three seasons were his first three seasons with us. He was a solid, but not amazing player to that extent. Yes, he made the AS team in 2012, but that's really just because we were horrible but somebody had to represent us. Look at this: 2011-2013: Altuve is an overall average player. The Astros are horrible. 2014: Altuve's first dominant season. Suddenly the Astros are only a 70-90 team. Massive improvement. 2015-2019: Altuve is one of the most dominant offensive players in baseball. The Astros have a fantastic run of success during the regular season AND postseason. Including the 2017 WS where Altuve also wins the 2017 MVP for the season. 2020: Altuve has the worst season of his career. Astros fail to even be a .500 team. BUT, they make the playoffs and are a win away from the WS again. SEE: Altuve bounces back and hits .375 AVG with a 1.200+ OPS during the postseason. 2021-2022: Altuve is arguably again a top-10 offensive player in all of baseball. The Astros make back-to-back WS appearances and win another championship. Heck, even just last year the team was only 10-11 when Altuve doesn't play. 10-11! With Altuve they had a winning percentage over .680. Without, under .500. So if people worry when Altuve struggles, I would say it's for good reason. The team goes as Altuve goes. That's not a knock on Altuve. If anything it shows how important he has been. I'm not going to go back and do the research, but has there been a player in our franchise whose career trends so greatly match the team's performance? I can't think of any. Tanner Bushue, he sucked when the team sucked. The biggest determining factor on Altuve's ongoing value, will be if the team succeeds despite Altuve struggling. As of now, that hasn't happened during Altuve's career. I'm not saying we can give Altuve all of the credit for this run of success, but he is definitely the biggest component. We were starting our success before Bregman arrived, and we've continued our success after Springer and Correa left. We had success with AND WITHOUT Verlander. |
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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 11:40:47 GMT -6
Tanner Bushue, he sucked when the team sucked. The biggest determining factor on Altuve's ongoing value, will be if the team succeeds despite Altuve struggling. As of now, that hasn't happened during Altuve's career. I'm not saying we can give Altuve all of the credit for this run of success, but he is definitely the biggest component. We were starting our success before Bregman arrived, and we've continued our success after Springer and Correa left. We had success with AND WITHOUT Verlander. Before Altuve and JD Martinez arrived the Astros roster was almost devoid of talent. Altuve started the roster building but without adding a lot of the other parts that were added our record would remain as bad as it was in his rookie year. No doubt Altuve is the spark that lights our offensive fire but without the replacement of Springer with Tucker and Correa with Pena then the fire would not burn. |
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Post by olpapa on Feb 8, 2023 11:48:59 GMT -6
So…., what kind of extension will Tucker get? IIRC Yordan got a 6-year, $115 million deal. Alvarez is obviously the better bat, but Tucker is no slouch. In all other areas of the game Tucker is the better player. I may be proven wrong, but I don’t see Tucker signing for a deal less than Alvarez received. What do you all think?
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Post by Ashitaka on Feb 8, 2023 12:15:00 GMT -6
So…., what kind of extension will Tucker get? IIRC Yordan got a 6-year, $115 million deal. Alvarez is obviously the better bat, but Tucker is no slouch. In all other areas of the game Tucker is the better player. I may be proven wrong, but I don’t see Tucker signing for a deal less than Alvarez received. What do you all think? Tucker's first free agent year will be his age 29 season. If he doesn't get any better, he will be looking for eight years, and around $25 million per year, or $200 million total. I don't see him taking a significant discount with us, assuming he's focused only on getting the max he can. We will have to do something like 8 years, $170 million (final three arb years @ $15 each + five FA years @ $25 each) to have a real shot IMO. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 12:21:37 GMT -6
The biggest determining factor on Altuve's ongoing value, will be if the team succeeds despite Altuve struggling. As of now, that hasn't happened during Altuve's career. I'm not saying we can give Altuve all of the credit for this run of success, but he is definitely the biggest component. We were starting our success before Bregman arrived, and we've continued our success after Springer and Correa left. We had success with AND WITHOUT Verlander. Before Altuve and JD Martinez arrived the Astros roster was almost devoid of talent. Altuve started the roster building but without adding a lot of the other parts that were added our record would remain as bad as it was in his rookie year. No doubt Altuve is the spark that lights our offensive fire but without the replacement of Springer with Tucker and Correa with Pena then the fire would not burn. Very possible. But again, look at how the team did with and when Altuve starts and when he doesn't in those years: When Altuve starts in 2021: 86-58 /// When Altuve does not start: 9-9 When Altuve starts in 2022: 96-41 /// When Altuve does not start: 10-15 Replacing good players or not, we have not been a good team when he isn't in that starting lineup. Heck, even in 2020 when he struggled we were at least still a winning team (26-22) when he was on the field. When he wasn't playing we were only 3-9! Even when he struggled in his worst year and we were our worst team since 2014, we were still better with him than without him. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 12:25:24 GMT -6
So…., what kind of extension will Tucker get? IIRC Yordan got a 6-year, $115 million deal. Alvarez is obviously the better bat, but Tucker is no slouch. In all other areas of the game Tucker is the better player. I may be proven wrong, but I don’t see Tucker signing for a deal less than Alvarez received. What do you all think? I don't see why he should accept anything less then $200 million for at least 8 years. Offensively he compares favorably to Riley, but he has more defensive and baserunning value. Heck, we'd probably still getting our money's worth at a 10-year $250 million extension. He'd only be 35 when that ends, right? Getting all of his prime years at around $25 per seems like a good deal for both sides. He gets a guaranteed quarter of a billion dollars, and we get tie up the future cornerstone of the franchise. |
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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 12:37:42 GMT -6
Before Altuve and JD Martinez arrived the Astros roster was almost devoid of talent. Altuve started the roster building but without adding a lot of the other parts that were added our record would remain as bad as it was in his rookie year. No doubt Altuve is the spark that lights our offensive fire but without the replacement of Springer with Tucker and Correa with Pena then the fire would not burn. Very possible. But again, look at how the team did with and when Altuve starts and when he doesn't in those years: When Altuve starts in 2021: 86-58 /// When Altuve does not start: 9-9 When Altuve starts in 2022: 96-41 /// When Altuve does not start: 10-15 Replacing good players or not, we have not been a good team when he isn't in that starting lineup. Heck, even in 2020 when he struggled we were at least still a winning team (26-22) when he was on the field. When he wasn't playing we were only 3-9! Even when he struggled in his worst year and we were our worst team since 2014, we were still better with him than without him. My point is that Altuve does not do it alone. I have no idea what the stats would be if Bregman is removed, Tucker removed, Alvarez removed. Success can be more accurately predicted by the depth of successful bats. Altuve does bring a spark beyond stats without question. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 12:55:58 GMT -6
Very possible. But again, look at how the team did with and when Altuve starts and when he doesn't in those years: When Altuve starts in 2021: 86-58 /// When Altuve does not start: 9-9 When Altuve starts in 2022: 96-41 /// When Altuve does not start: 10-15 Replacing good players or not, we have not been a good team when he isn't in that starting lineup. Heck, even in 2020 when he struggled we were at least still a winning team (26-22) when he was on the field. When he wasn't playing we were only 3-9! Even when he struggled in his worst year and we were our worst team since 2014, we were still better with him than without him. My point is that Altuve does not do it alone. I have no idea what the stats would be if Bregman is removed, Tucker removed, Alvarez removed. Success can be more accurately predicted by the depth of successful bats. Altuve does bring a spark beyond stats without question. Of course, otherwise Trout and the Angels would win the WS every year. But it's a surprisingly consistent trend with Altuve successful and playing, than when that isn't the case. More so than with most players. |
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Post by abregmanfan on Feb 8, 2023 13:03:26 GMT -6
I am with Saint. It will probably take 200+ to extend him. I also think he is worth it.
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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 13:09:46 GMT -6
My point is that Altuve does not do it alone. I have no idea what the stats would be if Bregman is removed, Tucker removed, Alvarez removed. Success can be more accurately predicted by the depth of successful bats. Altuve does bring a spark beyond stats without question. Of course, otherwise Trout and the Angels would win the WS every year. But it's a surprisingly consistent trend with Altuve successful and playing, than when that isn't the case. More so than with most players. So who tabulates these numbers and how do they compare to Altuve's. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Feb 8, 2023 13:16:27 GMT -6
Y’all know how I feel about Tucker.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Feb 8, 2023 14:27:50 GMT -6
I don't believe anybody here is "abandoning" Altuve or wants him gone. Some people have rightly mentioned his defense not being as good in recent years, and some of us get concerned when he slumps. That's not in any way knocking what a fantastic player he has been for us. I think everybody here wants him to retire an Astro and go into the Hall with an Astros hat on. That being said, if we get concerned, it's only because we can see the difference his presence and production has on the team. Our worst three seasons were his first three seasons with us. He was a solid, but not amazing player to that extent. Yes, he made the AS team in 2012, but that's really just because we were horrible but somebody had to represent us. Look at this: 2011-2013: Altuve is an overall average player. The Astros are horrible. 2014: Altuve's first dominant season. Suddenly the Astros are only a 70-90 team. Massive improvement. 2015-2019: Altuve is one of the most dominant offensive players in baseball. The Astros have a fantastic run of success during the regular season AND postseason. Including the 2017 WS where Altuve also wins the 2017 MVP for the season. 2020: Altuve has the worst season of his career. Astros fail to even be a .500 team. BUT, they make the playoffs and are a win away from the WS again. SEE: Altuve bounces back and hits .375 AVG with a 1.200+ OPS during the postseason. 2021-2022: Altuve is arguably again a top-10 offensive player in all of baseball. The Astros make back-to-back WS appearances and win another championship. Heck, even just last year the team was only 10-11 when Altuve doesn't play. 10-11! With Altuve they had a winning percentage over .680. Without, under .500. So if people worry when Altuve struggles, I would say it's for good reason. The team goes as Altuve goes. That's not a knock on Altuve. If anything it shows how important he has been. I'm not going to go back and do the research, but has there been a player in our franchise whose career trends so greatly match the team's performance? I can't think of any. All of what you said here might be alright if it came from anyone else besides you, the guy with the longest history of misjudging and underestimating and over-questioning one Mr. Jose Altuve. You have shit on him since he first came up to the big leagues. |
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koolade2
Veteran
15K Thief
#WWG1WGA
Posts: 4,340
Likes: 505
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Post by koolade2 on Feb 8, 2023 14:53:01 GMT -6
What date do the Pitchers and Catchers report
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Post by Ashitaka on Feb 8, 2023 15:04:17 GMT -6
What date do the Pitchers and Catchers report The guys playing in the WBC will report on the 13th, the others on the 16th. WBC position players on the 16th, other position players on the 21st. |
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Post by churchill on Feb 8, 2023 15:13:01 GMT -6
So we get minority rule instead. Majority rules is the main principle of a Democratic Republic. Before I respond to this I have to make sure I am not being a bully to some little kid. How old approximately are you, have you graduated from high school. Nope l graduated high school in 1967, and there is nothing you say that will get me to agree with you. Don't even try. My bad for responding to line of postings in the first place. There are some subjects that probable shouldn't be part of a sports thread. l apologize ... |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -6
Of course, otherwise Trout and the Angels would win the WS every year. But it's a surprisingly consistent trend with Altuve successful and playing, than when that isn't the case. More so than with most players. So who tabulates these numbers and how do they compare to Altuve's. Oh I'm just pulling them from baseball-reference.com. If you go their "Game Log" section for each year, it breaks down the team's record when they played or started the game. |
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Post by Saint on Feb 8, 2023 16:07:24 GMT -6
I don't believe anybody here is "abandoning" Altuve or wants him gone. Some people have rightly mentioned his defense not being as good in recent years, and some of us get concerned when he slumps. That's not in any way knocking what a fantastic player he has been for us. I think everybody here wants him to retire an Astro and go into the Hall with an Astros hat on. That being said, if we get concerned, it's only because we can see the difference his presence and production has on the team. Our worst three seasons were his first three seasons with us. He was a solid, but not amazing player to that extent. Yes, he made the AS team in 2012, but that's really just because we were horrible but somebody had to represent us. Look at this: 2011-2013: Altuve is an overall average player. The Astros are horrible. 2014: Altuve's first dominant season. Suddenly the Astros are only a 70-90 team. Massive improvement. 2015-2019: Altuve is one of the most dominant offensive players in baseball. The Astros have a fantastic run of success during the regular season AND postseason. Including the 2017 WS where Altuve also wins the 2017 MVP for the season. 2020: Altuve has the worst season of his career. Astros fail to even be a .500 team. BUT, they make the playoffs and are a win away from the WS again. SEE: Altuve bounces back and hits .375 AVG with a 1.200+ OPS during the postseason. 2021-2022: Altuve is arguably again a top-10 offensive player in all of baseball. The Astros make back-to-back WS appearances and win another championship. Heck, even just last year the team was only 10-11 when Altuve doesn't play. 10-11! With Altuve they had a winning percentage over .680. Without, under .500. So if people worry when Altuve struggles, I would say it's for good reason. The team goes as Altuve goes. That's not a knock on Altuve. If anything it shows how important he has been. I'm not going to go back and do the research, but has there been a player in our franchise whose career trends so greatly match the team's performance? I can't think of any. All of what you said here might be alright if it came from anyone else besides you, the guy with the longest history of misjudging and underestimating and over-questioning one Mr. Jose Altuve. You have shit on him since he first came up to the big leagues. No, you and others took it that way for whatever reason. All I ever said about Altuve initially, was that he was overrated as a player his first few years with us. You took that "overrated" comment to mean I disliked him or didn't think he should be playing. I've always supported him and wanted him to do well, and he has taken over as my favorite current Astro for several years now. None of that changes the fact that he was overrated by Astros fans his first few years. He just was. He was a solid player, but he didn't become a very good player until his 4th season in the league. But Astros fans treated him like more than that before he established himself, just because he was an AS in 2012 despite really just being a slightly better than average player. Our team was so bad back then that fans were clinging to any bit of hope and going overboard. Since then, obviously Altuve has amounted to an elite status for several years. So, if anything, I should just be criticized for not recognizing his potential earlier on in his career. The "What's Wrong with Altuve" threads are mostly meant as slumpbusters and when he struggles, and as a tracker for how he is doing throughout the season (which I thought came across in the posts, but maybe not). Since he IS my current favorite Astro (although Tucker is moving up the list quickly), I get p*ssed when he slumps because I want him to do well and why I focus on his performance more than others a lot of the time. I had the same problem with Bagwell when I was a kid. I hope and want Altuve to be the next career Astro in the Hall. At least I never picked on him for his batting stance, hair style, or name like some people do............ |
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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 18:40:09 GMT -6
Before I respond to this I have to make sure I am not being a bully to some little kid. How old approximately are you, have you graduated from high school. Nope l graduated high school in 1967, and there is nothing you say that will get me to agree with you. Don't even try. My bad for responding to line of postings in the first place. There are some subjects that probable shouldn't be part of a sports thread. l apologize ... I agree. Done |
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Post by m240 on Feb 8, 2023 18:41:12 GMT -6
So who tabulates these numbers and how do they compare to Altuve's. Oh I'm just pulling them from baseball-reference.com. If you go their "Game Log" section for each year, it breaks down the team's record when they played or started the game. Good to know |
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Post by bearbryant on Feb 8, 2023 23:51:59 GMT -6
I'm ok. I've been called not too bright for saying The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou is my favorite Bill Murray movie, and we're still buds My wife really loves Lost in Translation. I was more partial to his Oscar-worthy role of Ernie McCracken. and What About Bob? for me fall into the dumb category of Murray comedy I agree with Tim about. My favorite role for him is when he plays a scientist. Jeff Goldblum is that way too |
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Post by unionstation82 on Feb 9, 2023 7:37:01 GMT -6
Before I respond to this I have to make sure I am not being a bully to some little kid. How old approximately are you, have you graduated from high school. Nope l graduated high school in 1967, and there is nothing you say that will get me to agree with you. Don't even try. My bad for responding to line of postings in the first place. There are some subjects that probable shouldn't be part of a sports thread. l apologize ... Don’t apologize for anything besides being an Angels fan. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Feb 9, 2023 7:37:38 GMT -6
My wife really loves Lost in Translation. I was more partial to his Oscar-worthy role of Ernie McCracken. and What About Bob? for me fall into the dumb category of Murray comedy I agree with Tim about. My favorite role for him is when he plays a scientist. Jeff Goldblum is that way too Take that all the way back. |
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koolade2
Veteran
15K Thief
#WWG1WGA
Posts: 4,340
Likes: 505
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Post by koolade2 on Feb 9, 2023 10:47:42 GMT -6
Isn't that like Rooting for the Aggies  |
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Post by churchill on Feb 9, 2023 13:04:50 GMT -6
Nope l graduated high school in 1967, and there is nothing you say that will get me to agree with you. Don't even try. My bad for responding to line of postings in the first place. There are some subjects that probable shouldn't be part of a sports thread. l apologize ... Don’t apologize for anything besides being an Angels fan. Can't do that regardless of their wins or losses, l still get to watch Ohtani, and Trout. The 2 most exciting players in the game. IMO |
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Post by unionstation82 on Feb 9, 2023 14:48:01 GMT -6
Don’t apologize for anything besides being an Angels fan. Can't do that regardless of their wins or losses, l still get to watch Ohtani, and Trout. The 2 most exciting players in the game. IMO That’s understandable. They’re dynamic players. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Feb 9, 2023 15:53:32 GMT -6
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Post by Saint on Feb 9, 2023 16:40:20 GMT -6
Don’t apologize for anything besides being an Angels fan. Can't do that regardless of their wins or losses, l still get to watch Ohtani, and Trout. The 2 most exciting players in the game. IMO While I don't want to see the Astros give up this run of success, Trout not getting one chance at a deep run in the postseason while in his prime would be such a complete loss for MLB. |
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