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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on May 5, 2023 5:41:56 GMT -6
I supported the Abreu signing not realizing how badly his power dropped off last season, which is something our front office should have been well aware of before throwing a bunch of money at him while talking about Covid Season MVP blah blah blah. I still think letting go of Gurriel made sense given his age and lack of power. However, as I discussed with Ash, Abreu was going through the same stuff (despite the solid hard-hit stuff) and the dude isn’t exactly a spring chicken either. It just screams front office incompetence. You can’t blame Abreu for signing on that dotted line, though. I just remember Bagwell getting all this praise for being a great resource to the organization for getting Abreu to sign. If it turns out he wasn't so great an acquisition, that praise needs to be revisited. As it would for anyone in a front-office job And that's why I have always been against hiring any of our past "heroes" as coach/manager/GM |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 6:17:28 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation.
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Post by thomasj13 on May 5, 2023 6:31:17 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Despite Abreu’s horrendous start, I still don’t fault the Astros offering the contract. It was the right move. Hopefully very soon he gets it together and proves why he was a top coveted free agent. |
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 8:28:47 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Not as a player. But as a talent evaluator and projector? If he bulldozed past people who knew better based on his biases against stats and modern methods to sign a guy who was on the cusp of completely falling apart, then of course it should. |
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Post by thomasj13 on May 5, 2023 8:51:24 GMT -6
Even though I think signing Abreu was the right move, I still believe that they should have signed Yuli for bench depth. Especially when his asking price fell completely to the bottom.
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 9:05:46 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Despite Abreu’s horrendous start, I still don’t fault the Astros offering the contract. It was the right move. Hopefully very soon he gets it together and proves why he was a top coveted free agent. I agree. There were signs of decline, but there was also plenty of evidence to believe that he would still be a very effective hitter. |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 9:06:09 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Not as a player. But as a talent evaluator and projector? If he bulldozed past people who knew better based on his biases against stats and modern methods to sign a guy who was on the cusp of completely falling apart, then of course it should. Name a GM that has never picked a dud. |
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Post by abregmanfan on May 5, 2023 10:41:52 GMT -6
I am not giving up on Abreu yet. There is plenty of time left for him to become a feared part of our lineup.
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Post by unionstation82 on May 5, 2023 12:28:10 GMT -6
I am not giving up on Abreu yet. There is plenty of time left for him to become a feared part of our lineup. He needs to stop fearing the batter’s box first. |
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 13:55:51 GMT -6
Even though I think signing Abreu was the right move, I still believe that they should have signed Yuli for bench depth. Especially when his asking price fell completely to the bottom. Though I was fine with Yuli's departure, it was weird that they wouldn't even give him the same Minor League deal that Miami eventually did. Makes me think that Abreu was Bagwell/Crane's guy and they just wanted Yuli totally gone so the fans would just move on from him. |
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 13:59:42 GMT -6
Not as a player. But as a talent evaluator and projector? If he bulldozed past people who knew better based on his biases against stats and modern methods to sign a guy who was on the cusp of completely falling apart, then of course it should. Name a GM that has never picked a dud. The difference is that Bagwell isn't a GM. He's a former player who has made no secret of the fact that he rejects modern, proven-effective methods for the old ones that are inferior. And while no GM is 100% effective, there's a difference between following best practices and occasionally failing and throwing best practices out the window. Be honest; are you comfortable with Bagwell having the level of influence he does? Do you think this is an aberration and he will improve, or even reflect and ask if maybe he should not have been so dismissive of Click? |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on May 5, 2023 14:09:22 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Gotta disagree. His reputation was built as a player, and that reputation is still good. If he wants to foray into talent acquisition that’s a whole different ballgame and so far he’s batting zero. Actually less than zero because Abreu is a net negative at the moment; I.e., he’s hurting the team. Certainly there’s still time to turn it around but a power guy who hasn’t homered in 50 games is more than just a cause for concern. How many times does a surgeon or mechanic or cop get to screw up before it damages their reputation? |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 14:10:41 GMT -6
Name a GM that has never picked a dud. The difference is that Bagwell isn't a GM. He's a former player who has made no secret of the fact that he rejects modern, proven-effective methods for the old ones that are inferior. And while no GM is 100% effective, there's a difference between following best practices and occasionally failing and throwing best practices out the window. Be honest; are you comfortable with Bagwell having the level of influence he does? Do you think this is an aberration and he will improve, or even reflect and ask if maybe he should not have been so dismissive of Click? Here's the thing, I don't know what level of influence Bagwell has or has had over our success. Nobody does. We just know that Crane likes him as one of his baseball guys and had him help with negotiations to get Abreu. And we were all in favor of them signing Abreu initially. What we do know, is that Abreu even if there were some signs of decline, was still a very good effective hitter last year and is well known to be a great clubhouse guy. Both of those things are important to Bagwell and everyone else that I can think of in the baseball world. Nobody. Not us or anyone else, predicted that Abreu would have had this bad of a start or immediate decline. Heck, he hit .292 with a .910 OPS in ST which is right around his career norms. And through the first 10 games he was hitting over .300 with a good OBP even though his power was down. This .445 OPS since the Pittsburgh series could not and would not be predicted by anybody. I do agree that I think Click earned the right to continue as our GM. I said all along that I think he did a very good job given the situation he was given and that I would have kept him and let Dusty hit the road. I think Abreu is hurt, frankly. |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 14:12:31 GMT -6
Even if Abreu ends up a total bust, GMs never make 100% good choices. I'm not sure why Bagwell helping with one bad deal should do anything to ruin his reputation. Gotta disagree. His reputation was built as a player, and that reputation is still good. If he wants to foray into talent acquisition that’s a whole different ballgame and so far he’s batting zero. Actually less than zero because Abreu is a net negative at the moment; I.e., he’s hurting the team. Certainly there’s still time to turn it around but a power guy who hasn’t homered in 50 games is more than just a cause for concern. How many times does a surgeon or mechanic or cop get to screw up before it damages their reputation? But was it put out there that Bagwell is who told them to get Abreu and I missed it? I just remember them sending Bagwell to help get the deal done. Did Bagwell push for it and convince Crane? And again, is there anybody that felt getting Abreu was a bad idea? I sure don't remember anybody saying it. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on May 5, 2023 14:17:37 GMT -6
Not as a player. But as a talent evaluator and projector? If he bulldozed past people who knew better based on his biases against stats and modern methods to sign a guy who was on the cusp of completely falling apart, then of course it should. Name a GM that has never picked a dud. That’s not really the point. He’s not a GM. And actively denied wanting the job. Yet he played one on TV and so far it’s gone bad. |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 14:38:25 GMT -6
Even if we want to put all the blame of Abreu on Bagwell, how does that explain the rest of the offense? There is a bigger issue here. Every hitter is below average except for Tucker, Chas, and Yordan. And Chas has been out for three weeks with Tucker hitting .191 over his last two weeks.
If there is something to complain about so far (other than the players just struggling) it's Dusty and Cintron.
Dusty's lineups and poor pinch hitting decisions are one of the leading causes, imo, of us not meeting our Pythagorean W/L that shows us at 18-13. Yes, our position player resources have been stretched, but we don't make the best use of the resources we DO have. We have a better option that could help with catching, DH, and 1B and we don't use him. We don't rest guys that are obviously struggling (how has Abreu not had a day or two off?). We put horrible OBP guys hitting in front of our best hitters. We don't pinch hit for our worst hitters in late game situations. It's just bad managing. If it weren't for the flukey run by Dubon and Meyers, and the unexpected boost (for a while) from Julks, this season would be even worse.
And Cintron and Snitker... What are they doing? Literally every veteran on the team is doing worse than last year except for Dubon. I'm not an expert, but it's clear to the naked eye that Abreu isn't lifting anything. That Hensley is taking way way too many strikes. That Pena, Julks, and Dubon can't lay off of anything sliding away from them. What do our hitting coaches even do?
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 14:39:50 GMT -6
Name a GM that has never picked a dud. That’s not really the point. He’s not a GM. And actively denied wanting the job. Yet he played one on TV and so far it’s gone bad. My point is that even if we put all the blame on Bagwell for Abreu, it's hard to say that he is a bad evaluator based on one move. At least for me. All FO types and GM personnel have had duds. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on May 5, 2023 14:40:18 GMT -6
Gotta disagree. His reputation was built as a player, and that reputation is still good. If he wants to foray into talent acquisition that’s a whole different ballgame and so far he’s batting zero. Actually less than zero because Abreu is a net negative at the moment; I.e., he’s hurting the team. Certainly there’s still time to turn it around but a power guy who hasn’t homered in 50 games is more than just a cause for concern. How many times does a surgeon or mechanic or cop get to screw up before it damages their reputation? But was it put out there that Bagwell is who told them to get Abreu and I missed it? I just remember them sending Bagwell to help get the deal done. Did Bagwell push for it and convince Crane? And again, is there anybody that felt getting Abreu was a bad idea? I sure don't remember anybody saying it. IIRC it was Bagwell who played a key part in the courtship then later proclaimed that Abreu was the guy they wanted all along. I’m sure he was sent at the behest of Crane but as far as I can see he was an enthusiastic participant. He may have played a key role in convincing Crane; don’t know. I, too, thought the signing would work out better than keeping Yuli. It still may, but that assumes facts not currently in evidence. It makes no difference if we liked the signing or not. Fans can’t be held accountable for wanting a player who has been historically good and then cheering when he’s signed. However talent acquisition isn’t our full-time (highly compensated) job. We don’t have access to proprietary information used to evaluate players or the decision tree used to exclude them. My response was to your statement that one Bagwell screwup shouldn’t harm his reputation. IF he swayed Crane to lay out nearly 60 MILLION dollars for a possibly washed-up player then I guaran-damn-tee you he should shoulder a percentage of the blame. The Nuremberg defense doesn’t cut it. In any event here’s hoping that Abreu breaks out of this “funk” and makes the whole discussion superfluous. |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 14:47:19 GMT -6
But was it put out there that Bagwell is who told them to get Abreu and I missed it? I just remember them sending Bagwell to help get the deal done. Did Bagwell push for it and convince Crane? And again, is there anybody that felt getting Abreu was a bad idea? I sure don't remember anybody saying it. IIRC it was Bagwell who played a key part in the courtship then later proclaimed that Abreu was the guy they wanted all along. I’m sure he was sent at the behest of Crane but as far as I can see he was an enthusiastic participant. He may have played a key role in convincing Crane; don’t know. I, too, thought the signing would work out better than keeping Yuli. It still may, but that assumes facts not currently in evidence. It makes no difference if we liked the signing or not. Fans can’t be held accountable for wanting a player who has been historically good and then cheering when he’s signed. However talent acquisition isn’t our full-time (highly compensated) job. We don’t have access to proprietary information used to evaluate players or the decision tree used to exclude them. My response was to your statement that one Bagwell screwup shouldn’t harm his reputation. IF he swayed Crane to lay out nearly 60 MILLION dollars for a possibly washed-up player then I guaran-damn-tee you he should shoulder a percentage of the blame. The Nuremberg defense doesn’t cut it. In any event here’s hoping that Abreu breaks out of this “funk” and makes the whole discussion superfluous. Well sure, I agree he should shoulder some blame if getting Abreu was part of his advising. But do we think there is any team that needed a 1B that would have passed on Abreu other than just not being able to afford him? If I want a steak and go to Taste of Texas for the first time since everybody knows Taste of Texas makes a damn good steak, and suddenly I get a bad steak...does that mean I don't know steak? Does that mean I should have known better than to go to Taste of Texas? I guess my point is that I just don't quite get why this is a Bagwell thing. Him and Crane did what any logical person would do. They signed the best available 1B to fill our large 1B hole. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on May 5, 2023 14:54:46 GMT -6
Even if we want to put all the blame of Abreu on Bagwell, how does that explain the rest of the offense? There is a bigger issue here. Every hitter is below average except for Tucker, Chas, and Yordan. And Chas has been out for three weeks with Tucker hitting .191 over his last two weeks. If there is something to complain about so far (other than the players just struggling) it's Dusty and Cintron. Dusty's lineups and poor pinch hitting decisions are one of the leading causes, imo, of us not meeting our Pythagorean W/L that shows us at 18-13. Yes, our position player resources have been stretched, but we don't make the best use of the resources we DO have. We have a better option that could help with catching, DH, and 1B and we don't use him. We don't rest guys that are obviously struggling (how has Abreu not had a day or two off?). We put horrible OBP guys hitting in front of our best hitters. We don't pinch hit for our worst hitters in late game situations. It's just bad managing. If it weren't for the flukey run by Dubon and Meyers, and the unexpected boost (for a while) from Julks, this season would be even worse. And Cintron and Snitker... What are they doing? Literally every veteran on the team is doing worse than last year except for Dubon. I'm not an expert, but it's clear to the naked eye that Abreu isn't lifting anything. That Hensley is taking way way too many strikes. That Pena, Julks, and Dubon can't lay off of anything sliding away from them. What do our hitting coaches even do? I don’t put ALL of the blame (or even a majority if indeed there turns out to be any) on Bagwell. But to pretend that he bears NO responsibility is disingenuous at best. Abreu has killed us so far but he’s had plenty of help. But none of what you wrote here has any real bearing on Bagwell’s reputation remaining pristine as a FO guy, which was the original contention. |
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Post by Saint on May 5, 2023 15:01:16 GMT -6
Even if we want to put all the blame of Abreu on Bagwell, how does that explain the rest of the offense? There is a bigger issue here. Every hitter is below average except for Tucker, Chas, and Yordan. And Chas has been out for three weeks with Tucker hitting .191 over his last two weeks. If there is something to complain about so far (other than the players just struggling) it's Dusty and Cintron. Dusty's lineups and poor pinch hitting decisions are one of the leading causes, imo, of us not meeting our Pythagorean W/L that shows us at 18-13. Yes, our position player resources have been stretched, but we don't make the best use of the resources we DO have. We have a better option that could help with catching, DH, and 1B and we don't use him. We don't rest guys that are obviously struggling (how has Abreu not had a day or two off?). We put horrible OBP guys hitting in front of our best hitters. We don't pinch hit for our worst hitters in late game situations. It's just bad managing. If it weren't for the flukey run by Dubon and Meyers, and the unexpected boost (for a while) from Julks, this season would be even worse. And Cintron and Snitker... What are they doing? Literally every veteran on the team is doing worse than last year except for Dubon. I'm not an expert, but it's clear to the naked eye that Abreu isn't lifting anything. That Hensley is taking way way too many strikes. That Pena, Julks, and Dubon can't lay off of anything sliding away from them. What do our hitting coaches even do? I don’t put ALL of the blame (or even a majority if indeed there turns out to be any) on Bagwell. But to pretend that he bears NO responsibility is disingenuous at best. Abreu has killed us so far but he’s had plenty of help. But none of what you wrote here has any real bearing on Bagwell’s reputation remaining pristine as a FO guy, which was the original contention. I suppose my contention overall is why we're even bringing up Crane/Bagwell wanting Abreu as being a thing. Everybody wanted Abreu. This team is struggling because of way more than just Abreu. Bagwell's involvement in getting Abreu here didn't suddenly turn the team mediocre. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on May 5, 2023 15:10:53 GMT -6
IIRC it was Bagwell who played a key part in the courtship then later proclaimed that Abreu was the guy they wanted all along. I’m sure he was sent at the behest of Crane but as far as I can see he was an enthusiastic participant. He may have played a key role in convincing Crane; don’t know. I, too, thought the signing would work out better than keeping Yuli. It still may, but that assumes facts not currently in evidence. It makes no difference if we liked the signing or not. Fans can’t be held accountable for wanting a player who has been historically good and then cheering when he’s signed. However talent acquisition isn’t our full-time (highly compensated) job. We don’t have access to proprietary information used to evaluate players or the decision tree used to exclude them. My response was to your statement that one Bagwell screwup shouldn’t harm his reputation. IF he swayed Crane to lay out nearly 60 MILLION dollars for a possibly washed-up player then I guaran-damn-tee you he should shoulder a percentage of the blame. The Nuremberg defense doesn’t cut it. In any event here’s hoping that Abreu breaks out of this “funk” and makes the whole discussion superfluous. Well sure, I agree he should shoulder some blame if getting Abreu was part of his advising. But do we think there is any team that needed a 1B that would have passed on Abreu other than just not being able to afford him? If I want a steak and go to Taste of Texas for the first time since everybody knows Taste of Texas makes a damn good steak, and suddenly I get a bad steak...does that mean I don't know steak? Does that mean I should have known better than to go to Taste of Texas? I guess my point is that I just don't quite get why this is a Bagwell thing. Him and Crane did what any logical person would do. They signed the best available 1B to fill our large 1B hole. Look, I get what you’re saying. We all thought signing him was a good idea. It still might be. But insinuating that we wouldn’t have made any better decision or that the decision was the correct one at the time doesn’t really matter. It could have been the correct decision and still turn out to be a bad choice. This is a results-driven industry. If the end result is bad then the decision-makers get blamed. It’s not fair at all. But it’s that simple. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 5, 2023 15:11:26 GMT -6
We forget the odd thing is that Yuli aged himself out of the position, yet they turned to another slightly less aging guy with declining power and worse defense. They gave him 2020 MVP money and acted like heroes.
There’s a chance this guy could put up ‘17 Beltrán numbers.
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 15:13:24 GMT -6
That’s not really the point. He’s not a GM. And actively denied wanting the job. Yet he played one on TV and so far it’s gone bad. My point is that even if we put all the blame on Bagwell for Abreu, it's hard to say that he is a bad evaluator based on one move. At least for me. All FO types and GM personnel have had duds. I've heard him enough times on the broadcast poo pooing launch angle and other metrics for me to say it. He's an old-school guy who has made it clear he thinks stats and computers are dumb and for the nerds ruining baseball etc. etc. etc. You can love him as a player and yet not want him anywhere near the decision-making processes of the front office. |
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 15:15:25 GMT -6
I don’t put ALL of the blame (or even a majority if indeed there turns out to be any) on Bagwell. But to pretend that he bears NO responsibility is disingenuous at best. Abreu has killed us so far but he’s had plenty of help. But none of what you wrote here has any real bearing on Bagwell’s reputation remaining pristine as a FO guy, which was the original contention. I suppose my contention overall is why we're even bringing up Crane/Bagwell wanting Abreu as being a thing. Everybody wanted Abreu. This team is struggling because of way more than just Abreu. Bagwell's involvement in getting Abreu here didn't suddenly turn the team mediocre. It's odd to use that as an argument IMO. We are not front office personnel. We don't have access to the technology and information and scouts etc. that the front office should. They should be better than us at selecting players. It is their job to get it right. |
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Post by bearbryant on May 5, 2023 15:28:38 GMT -6
I suppose my contention overall is why we're even bringing up Crane/Bagwell wanting Abreu as being a thing. Everybody wanted Abreu. The local press patted Bagwell on the back and commended him for bringing Abreu to the team. They didn't congratulate the rest of us for a job well done wanting the guy. If they had, then I'd probably understand your contention |
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Post by bearbryant on May 5, 2023 15:41:20 GMT -6
We forget the odd thing is that Yuli aged himself out of the position, yet they turned to another slightly less aging guy with declining power and worse defense. They gave him 2020 MVP money and acted like heroes. There’s a chance this guy could put up ‘17 Beltrán numbers. Which is cool but for $19M |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 5, 2023 16:01:12 GMT -6
We forget the odd thing is that Yuli aged himself out of the position, yet they turned to another slightly less aging guy with declining power and worse defense. They gave him 2020 MVP money and acted like heroes. There’s a chance this guy could put up ‘17 Beltrán numbers. Which is cool but for $19M Precisely. |
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Post by Ashitaka on May 5, 2023 16:50:54 GMT -6
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Post by thomasj13 on May 5, 2023 17:32:22 GMT -6
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