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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 3, 2023 12:49:43 GMT -6
We send down Julks for either Corey Dickerson who was released by the Nats. Or bring up Singleton and see what he has for alittle while. Also Andrew Vasquez is still avalaible as a LHP out of the pen he wouldnt be bad Oh, you meant Vazquez. I thought you meant Velázquez. That’s less exciting. At least Velázquez can play infield and is fast. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 13:40:21 GMT -6
We have at least one more year of free agency, offseason deals, in-season trades, and a draft before we're set to potentially lose any of our major pieces. And, if we do lose some of our top players to free agency then, we'll get some high level compensation picks. Either way we're not completely losing out. Is it very possible that after next year we need to spend a couple seasons being more of a mid-level team while we re-tool? Sure. But it's not like we'll need to completely rebuild again, and we'll have watched a dynasty for a decade. All teams go through at least small re-tooling/rebuilding phases. I consider the Cardinals one of the best franchises in baseball when you look at their history, success, fanbase, ex-players, etc. all with never being a top money spender. But even the Cardinals have gone through rough patches. There is no perfect approach at running a franchise that works forever. In the sports world you mostly get two choices when you're in the window we're in: A. Play it super safe and stay a pretty good team for a long while. B. Push the envelope and work at being an elite team for a shorter period that people remember for decades. Personally, after decades of mediocrity, I'm all for watching this elite team do things that we'll likely never see them do again in our lifetime. I don't think a lot of people still fully appreciate just how good of a team we've gotten to watch the last several years and how thankful we should be. Crane and co. won't always make all the right moves, but what they've brought to Houston is dynamic, competitive, and f*cking fun. We're no longer a team that fans on the west and east coasts barely think of. We're now THE team they talk about the most. We may not have the fanbase of the Yankees and never will, but when people talk about Major League Baseball...the Astros are one of the teams they're talking about the most. They all "want Houston," and we've f*cking given it to them. Time to make JV, Altuve, and Bregman, 3-time champions this year, and then work on doing it again next year even if we have to trade more prospects. For the record, I’m excited that Verlander is back because this rotation desperately needed help. However, losing Gilbert makes me worried because I don’t see Tucker staying here long term. There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Aug 3, 2023 13:42:46 GMT -6
For the record, I’m excited that Verlander is back because this rotation desperately needed help. However, losing Gilbert makes me worried because I don’t see Tucker staying here long term. There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. Pedro Leon is coming around. Melton looks pretty good |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 3, 2023 13:42:52 GMT -6
For the record, I’m excited that Verlander is back because this rotation desperately needed help. However, losing Gilbert makes me worried because I don’t see Tucker staying here long term. There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. We don’t have to just have two years is my point. If people here don’t care about trading away prospects to keep the window open, then also retain your stars long term to do the same. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 14:35:29 GMT -6
There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. Pedro Leon is coming around. Melton looks pretty good I'm not concerned either way. For all the heartache so many people seem to have with us letting our "stars" go, it has all worked out very well for us. The only "star" that left during this window that we would still benefit from is Cole, and he was never going to stay. 1. Springer - He's been good for Toronto but a 122 OPS+ doesn't scream $25 million a year, and he missed half the season and a 5th of the season the last two years of that contract. This year he's been healthy but stinks. 2. Correa - Still not very healthy, and he's been good but not $200+ million good. 3. And even with Cole, he's been very good for the Yankees....but he has also seen his OPS+ drop from 164 with us to 132 with the Yankees. Losing his sticky stuff hurt him for a while. We won a WS without any of them. With Pena at SS and Chas in CF making about $1.5 million combined. I'm not saying Tucker isn't worth a big contract from us, but these huge contracts rarely work out for the better. Look at deGrom and Seager for the Rangers right now. If Tucker follows more money elsewhere good for him. He won a ring, and he'll be remembered as a great Astro. There will be other prospects and other free agents. We've managed to extend some players, and we'll manage to get some others. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 14:36:18 GMT -6
There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. We don’t have to just have two years is my point. If people here don’t care about trading away prospects to keep the window open, then also retain your stars long term to do the same. You say that like we don't make attempts to retain stars, when we've retained more than we've lost. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 3, 2023 14:40:38 GMT -6
We don’t have to just have two years is my point. If people here don’t care about trading away prospects to keep the window open, then also retain your stars long term to do the same. You say that like we don't make attempts to retain stars, when we've retained more than we've lost. I never said they didn’t make attempts. Out of all the ones they’ve had, I would say Cole and Correa were keepers, but Correa was risky because of his penchant for injury. However, that never stopped them from paying McCullers. Tucker has the most upside of them all, though, and it would be a mistake to let him walk. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 14:53:03 GMT -6
You say that like we don't make attempts to retain stars, when we've retained more than we've lost. I never said they didn’t make attempts. Out of all the ones they’ve had, I would say Cole and Correa were keepers, but Correa was risky because of his penchant for injury. However, that never stopped them from paying McCullers. Tucker has the most upside of them all, though, and it would be a mistake to let him walk. It's not a mistake if we win a WS without. We'll see. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 3, 2023 14:54:29 GMT -6
I never said they didn’t make attempts. Out of all the ones they’ve had, I would say Cole and Correa were keepers, but Correa was risky because of his penchant for injury. However, that never stopped them from paying McCullers. Tucker has the most upside of them all, though, and it would be a mistake to let him walk. It's not a mistake if we win a WS without. We'll see. Agreed. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 3, 2023 17:06:36 GMT -6
1 and 2 were never going to happen. There are too many random variables and gambles that don’t pay off. As for the third point: So even if the move puts three more trophies in the case it was the wrong move. In other words, it’s better to have a long-term shot at a championship than to actually win it. This is like thinking that it’s better to have a shot at being rich than to actually become rich. “I’m going to give you five million dollars a year for three years. OR you could have a chance at winning five million for the next 10 years.” You chose option B? Will you be able to prove it is THIS move that puts the trophies in the case? That we would not have won them if we traded for another "lesser" starter and kept the top prospects? That's my point. I think we needed a starter. I don't think we needed Verlander specifically. You’re being disingenuous. Of course I can’t prove it and you know it. But I’ll point out that you are the one who stated that even if Verlander helped them win the next 3 WS that trading Gilbert was a bad move. Is retaining Gilbert worth 3 trophies (your initiative, not mine)? Hell I’d trade Alvarez if I knew it would bring me three straight titles. The individual players, especially prospects, are not as valuable as the ultimate prize. And which rumored SP trade candidate out there was 1) actually available 2) better than Verlander and how do you knew they wouldn’t want Gilbert as a minimum also? |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 3, 2023 17:15:58 GMT -6
1 and 2 were never going to happen. There are too many random variables and gambles that don’t pay off. As for the third point: So even if the move puts three more trophies in the case it was the wrong move. In other words, it’s better to have a long-term shot at a championship than to actually win it. This is like thinking that it’s better to have a shot at being rich than to actually become rich. “I’m going to give you five million dollars a year for three years. OR you could have a chance at winning five million for the next 10 years.” You chose option B? It can happen if you don't do a bunch of dumb things. The Rays are in it every year with crippling financial problems because they are smart and they stick to it. Will you be able to prove it is THIS move that puts the trophies in the case? That we would not have won them if we traded for another "lesser" starter and kept the top prospects? That's my point. I think we needed a starter. I don't think we needed Verlander specifically. I think they could have filled the need without giving up our top two prospects. My point is simply that success following a decision does not necessarily indicate the decision itself was right or wise or should be repeated. Correlation does not necessarily entail causation. If we win the World Series this year, should we do another Montero or Abreu contract next off-season because things worked out in the end? The Rays do not challenge every year nor does any other team. They “stick to it” because their owner is the poorest owner in MLB and they have no other choice. Granted, they manage to have a highly talented FO and make tons of great moves but still have no trophies in the case. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 3, 2023 17:18:00 GMT -6
FWIW Dana Brown specifically said he wouldn’t trade any up-the-middle talent (P, SS, 2b, C). So that tells you what he though of Lee as a backstop. He viewed Gilbert as a future average CORNER outfielder. This ain’t Kyle Tucker he traded. I don't recall that quote, but if you're right, then I'm concerned about Brown's abilities. He would be in the absolute minority, maybe completely alone, in his thinking that Gilbert can't be at least an average defensive CF, and Lee at least an average receiver with a plus plus arm. It was an indirect quote via a supposed insider. |
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talshill
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Post by talshill on Aug 3, 2023 17:22:13 GMT -6
We don’t have to just have two years is my point. If people here don’t care about trading away prospects to keep the window open, then also retain your stars long term to do the same. You say that like we don't make attempts to retain stars, when we've retained more than we've lost. The one I’ve missed the most is Springer but he wasn’t going to re-sign with Houston, period. The one that made the least sense to me was Charlie Morton. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 17:31:57 GMT -6
You say that like we don't make attempts to retain stars, when we've retained more than we've lost. The one I’ve missed the most is Springer but he wasn’t going to re-sign with Houston, period. The one that made the least sense to me was Charlie Morton. I think everybody wanted Springer, but his production since leaving hasn't been worth his cost. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 3, 2023 17:32:22 GMT -6
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Post by nathangarza29 on Aug 3, 2023 20:49:29 GMT -6
Pena needs to be batting 8. Maldy is the only person who needs to be behind him at any time. When maldys not there he bats 9.
This batting order is all jacked up.
Altuve
Chas
Yordon
Tucker
Abreu
Bregman
Diaz
LFer
Pena
Js Pena needs a real thinking about come this offseason.
Idk what all we can do and for whom.
But we have about 10 capable SPs. We can for sure find a LF and SS with 2 of them
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 3, 2023 22:48:56 GMT -6
Pena needs to be batting 8. Maldy is the only person who needs to be behind him at any time. When maldys not there he bats 9. This batting order is all jacked up. Altuve Chas Yordon Tucker Abreu Bregman Diaz LFer Pena Js Pena needs a real thinking about come this offseason. Idk what all we can do and for whom. But we have about 10 capable SPs. We can for sure find a LF and SS with 2 of them Agreed, Chas has earned a spot higher up. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 3, 2023 23:43:24 GMT -6
Absolutely ridiculous if true. Julks is a 4th outfielder who can't play CF. They gave him a shot, lots of looks, and he actually performed for a little while to raise his stock. It was the best case scenario. But then they hold him. Imagine actually thinking they need to hang on to him but Gilbert is fair game. Has Dusty written all over it IMO; he saw Julks on a hot streak and thinks he's a future star now. I honestly don't know how anyone can not be concerned with this front office. I would actually be more concerned if I thought it was Brown who liked Julks so much, rather than Baker. Cause then I look at his draft class and start to wonder if the kid's getting a shot next season just because he's from the area. For now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though I'm okay with the draft class. It was a really deep one because of what COVID did three years ago, causing a lot more people to go to college instead of signing out of HS that year. Matthews was a legitimate 1st round talent, and saving on him let us sign a pair of other high-end prep hitters that we might have only gotten one of at best otherwise. Time will tell but I'm not concerned at this point at least. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 3, 2023 23:45:37 GMT -6
We send down Julks for either Corey Dickerson who was released by the Nats. Or bring up Singleton and see what he has for alittle while. Also Andrew Vazquez is still avalaible as a LHP out of the pen he wouldnt be bad Dickerson hasn't been a league-average hitter since 2019 and is posting a 70 wRC+ this season. I mean, why? Just why? |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 3, 2023 23:50:55 GMT -6
There will be other top OF prospects available in the next couple of drafts if we want them, I guarantee it. We have two more full years of Tucker. Pedro Leon is coming around. Melton looks pretty good Leon posted a .668 OPS last month while still averaging more than a strikeout per game. And this is his third season with time in AAA, in a hitter-friendly league and park. And I like Melton but he's a college bat who has not performed in AA yet. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 3, 2023 23:52:05 GMT -6
Pena needs to be batting 8. Maldy is the only person who needs to be behind him at any time. When maldys not there he bats 9. This batting order is all jacked up. Altuve Chas Yordon Tucker Abreu Bregman Diaz LFer Pena Js Pena needs a real thinking about come this offseason. Idk what all we can do and for whom. But we have about 10 capable SPs. We can for sure find a LF and SS with 2 of them Agreed, Chas has earned a spot higher up. Dusty's lefty-righty obsession is having Yordan hit down in the lineup, instead of as high up as possible to maximize the number of PAs he gets him. |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 4, 2023 0:53:32 GMT -6
Will you be able to prove it is THIS move that puts the trophies in the case? That we would not have won them if we traded for another "lesser" starter and kept the top prospects? That's my point. I think we needed a starter. I don't think we needed Verlander specifically. You’re being disingenuous. Of course I can’t prove it and you know it. But I’ll point out that you are the one who stated that even if Verlander helped them win the next 3 WS that trading Gilbert was a bad move. Is retaining Gilbert worth 3 trophies (your initiative, not mine)? Hell I’d trade Alvarez if I knew it would bring me three straight titles. The individual players, especially prospects, are not as valuable as the ultimate prize. And which rumored SP trade candidate out there was 1) actually available 2) better than Verlander and how do you knew they wouldn’t want Gilbert as a minimum also? I don't think it's disingenuous. My point is that no one can say that any one move is the reason a TEAM wins a championship or not. The point is that this team sans-Verlander could win, and this team with Verlander could lose. If we win the WS this year, no one can go "see see!? Without the JV trade this never happens!" We can't know. So what's the point in asking if I'm okay with this trade if we win it all if we can't know how much this trade did or didn't contribute to that win? I'm saying this was a bad individual move regardless of whether the team succeeds. I already answered Bortaz's hypotheticals. I do have to point out that I there were no better pitchers available than JV, but my point from the get go is that we did not need someone of that caliber. Regardless, what we know of the situation makes it clear they didn't make this move because they felt there were no other options. Crane's comments make it clear that they were excited as soon as they knew the Mets would give up a bunch of money to do the deal. They had no problems sending our top prospects away In the end I think this is just a difference in philosophy. My view is that 2017 and 2022 were great, but they're also the past. When we lost to the Yankees tonight, did you say to yourself "well, at least we have two trophies!" I didn't. That didn't make this loss more enjoyable. If we win the WS this year and Gilbert turns into a star for the Mets, the fact that we won the WS in the past will not make me regret the fact that Gilbert is on the Mets every time I see a highlight of him for the six+ years after the WS win is over. Maybe if we actually had a time machine and could see that it was Verlander specifically instead of Flaherty or some other pitcher who is the difference maker, that not making this deal and making a different one would actually cost us a WS win, then I could actually weigh the championship vs. keeping Gilbert. But since we can't... |
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Post by inaltuvewetrust on Aug 4, 2023 1:50:07 GMT -6
Pedro Leon is coming around. Melton looks pretty good And I like Melton but he's a college bat who has not performed in AA yet. Am I missing something? Sure, it would be nice if his average was closer to or above .300, but I think Melton’s numbers are pretty good this season. 71 runs, 18 home-runs, 40 RBIs, 40 SBs, .840 OPS. |
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Post by bearbryant on Aug 4, 2023 5:13:23 GMT -6
Dusty waited so long to play Chas every day my guess is he won't bat Chas cleanup, Bregman 6th and Abreu 7th. Which is what I'd do
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Post by thomasj13 on Aug 4, 2023 7:53:20 GMT -6
You’re being disingenuous. Of course I can’t prove it and you know it. But I’ll point out that you are the one who stated that even if Verlander helped them win the next 3 WS that trading Gilbert was a bad move. Is retaining Gilbert worth 3 trophies (your initiative, not mine)? Hell I’d trade Alvarez if I knew it would bring me three straight titles. The individual players, especially prospects, are not as valuable as the ultimate prize. And which rumored SP trade candidate out there was 1) actually available 2) better than Verlander and how do you knew they wouldn’t want Gilbert as a minimum also? I don't think it's disingenuous. My point is that no one can say that any one move is the reason a TEAM wins a championship or not. The point is that this team sans-Verlander could win, and this team with Verlander could lose. If we win the WS this year, no one can go "see see!? Without the JV trade this never happens!" We can't know. So what's the point in asking if I'm okay with this trade if we win it all if we can't know how much this trade did or didn't contribute to that win? I'm saying this was a bad individual move regardless of whether the team succeeds. I already answered Bortaz's hypotheticals. I do have to point out that I there were no better pitchers available than JV, but my point from the get go is that we did not need someone of that caliber. Regardless, what we know of the situation makes it clear they didn't make this move because they felt there were no other options. Crane's comments make it clear that they were excited as soon as they knew the Mets would give up a bunch of money to do the deal. They had no problems sending our top prospects away In the end I think this is just a difference in philosophy. My view is that 2017 and 2022 were great, but they're also the past. When we lost to the Yankees tonight, did you say to yourself "well, at least we have two trophies!" I didn't. That didn't make this loss more enjoyable. If we win the WS this year and Gilbert turns into a star for the Mets, the fact that we won the WS in the past will not make me regret the fact that Gilbert is on the Mets every time I see a highlight of him for the six+ years after the WS win is over. Maybe if we actually had a time machine and could see that it was Verlander specifically instead of Flaherty or some other pitcher who is the difference maker, that not making this deal and making a different one would actually cost us a WS win, then I could actually weigh the championship vs. keeping Gilbert. But since we can't... I think the Astros did the right move. The core of their team is under contract for this season and then two more. Verlander fits their championship window perfectly. Plus they’re getting him for 50%+ off. You play to win the game |
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Post by Ashitaka on Aug 4, 2023 8:38:09 GMT -6
And I like Melton but he's a college bat who has not performed in AA yet. Am I missing something? Sure, it would be nice if his average was closer to or above .300, but I think Melton’s numbers are pretty good this season. 71 runs, 18 home-runs, 40 RBIs, 40 SBs, .840 OPS. I could have worded that better. He has not performed in AA yet because he is still in A+ ball. I was saying he hasn't faced stiffer competition yet. His numbers at his level are indeed good, it's just not a very high level. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 4, 2023 9:05:35 GMT -6
Honestly if they wanted to maximize our lineup it would need to be drastically different. It would never ever happen, but I would do this:
Tucker RF
Yordan DH
Altuve 2B
Bregman 3B
Chas LF
Diaz C
Abreu 1B
Meyers CF
Pena SS
1. Tucker can start off the game with an extra base hit as well as anybody. He walks, he steals bases.
2. Put Yordan behind him and he'll get plenty of pitches to steal on, and they'll both get more ABs over the course of the season.
3. Altuve's been real patient this year, but he's still a free swinger who hits well with RISP so put him 3rd.
4. Then, if he gets on base, he'll see pitches to steal on with Bregman batting, plus Bregman generally sees more pitches if Altuve has a typical quick AB.
5. Then Chas and Diaz are our next best hitters so it bumps them up a little.
6. Round out the bottom three with our three weakest, put Pena still gets Tucker behind him to hopefully help him keep seeing good pitches the way he generally does when he bats 2nd.
7. I feel like this maximizes getting our best hitters the most ABs, plus putting our speedier guys in better situations to steal bases.
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 4, 2023 9:26:47 GMT -6
Dusty waited so long to play Chas every day my guess is he won't bat Chas cleanup, Bregman 6th and Abreu 7th. Which is what I'd do I love Bregman but the fact that the dude has such a hard time even lashing doubles and bats cleanup ahead of Yordan freaking Álvarez is a joke you can’t even write. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Aug 4, 2023 9:28:24 GMT -6
Honestly if they wanted to maximize our lineup it would need to be drastically different. It would never ever happen, but I would do this: Tucker RF Yordan DH Altuve 2B Bregman 3B Chas LF Diaz C Abreu 1B Meyers CF Pena SS 1. Tucker can start off the game with an extra base hit as well as anybody. He walks, he steals bases. 2. Put Yordan behind him and he'll get plenty of pitches to steal on, and they'll both get more ABs over the course of the season. 3. Altuve's been real patient this year, but he's still a free swinger who hits well with RISP so put him 3rd. 4. Then, if he gets on base, he'll see pitches to steal on with Bregman batting, plus Bregman generally sees more pitches if Altuve has a typical quick AB. 5. Then Chas and Diaz are our next best hitters so it bumps them up a little. 6. Round out the bottom three with our three weakest, put Pena still gets Tucker behind him to hopefully help him keep seeing good pitches the way he generally does when he bats 2nd. 7. I feel like this maximizes getting our best hitters the most ABs, plus putting our speedier guys in better situations to steal bases. I don’t have a problem 7-9, but that 1-6 is weird. I would do this: Tucker RF McCormick LF Altuve 2B Álvarez DH Bregman 3B Díaz C Abreu 1B Meyers CF Peña SS Bregman’s patience is not enough to justify Yordan batting behind him. All those pop ups and grounders won’t advance runners. Peña needs to bat 9th until he stops showing a propensity to whiff on outside pitches or to hit weak grounders to the left side. Cintrón needs to earn his money. |
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Post by Saint on Aug 4, 2023 9:46:20 GMT -6
Honestly if they wanted to maximize our lineup it would need to be drastically different. It would never ever happen, but I would do this: Tucker RF Yordan DH Altuve 2B Bregman 3B Chas LF Diaz C Abreu 1B Meyers CF Pena SS 1. Tucker can start off the game with an extra base hit as well as anybody. He walks, he steals bases. 2. Put Yordan behind him and he'll get plenty of pitches to steal on, and they'll both get more ABs over the course of the season. 3. Altuve's been real patient this year, but he's still a free swinger who hits well with RISP so put him 3rd. 4. Then, if he gets on base, he'll see pitches to steal on with Bregman batting, plus Bregman generally sees more pitches if Altuve has a typical quick AB. 5. Then Chas and Diaz are our next best hitters so it bumps them up a little. 6. Round out the bottom three with our three weakest, put Pena still gets Tucker behind him to hopefully help him keep seeing good pitches the way he generally does when he bats 2nd. 7. I feel like this maximizes getting our best hitters the most ABs, plus putting our speedier guys in better situations to steal bases. I don’t have a problem 7-9, but that 1-6 is weird. I would do this: Tucker RF McCormick LF Altuve 2B Álvarez DH Bregman 3B Díaz C Abreu 1B Meyers CF Peña SS Bregman’s patience is not enough to justify Yordan batting behind him. All those pop ups and grounders won’t advance runners. Peña needs to bat 9th until he stops showing a propensity to whiff on outside pitches or to hit weak grounders to the left side. Cintrón needs to earn his money. It's definitely a different lineup, but the idea is to get our best three hitters as many ABs as possible while also allowing for some stolen bases and moving runners. |
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