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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on May 30, 2018 0:38:21 GMT -6
I lose a little bit of respect for Hinch every time I see Marisnick at the plate.
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Post by astrosdoug on May 30, 2018 1:06:57 GMT -6
One thing I'm not sure of is how Giles would react to the Astros getting a new closer. Would he be willing to work as a setup man? If yes, then keep him. If not, he should probably be included in the trade for the new closer. Willing? He’d do what’s he’s told if he worked for me, or he could quit. That's what I mean; if he wouldn't do it, then the Astros should let him quit (by means of accepting a trade to the Royals, where he'd be the best closer among the relievers they have). I always like Kansas City, myself. |
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Post by astrosdoug on May 30, 2018 1:11:19 GMT -6
I lose a little bit of respect for Hinch every time I see Marisnick at the plate. The idea today was that he would merely be a defensive sub. He was never supposed to come to bat with the game on the line. But I think he no longer belongs on the team. 2014/15 Astros OK, I get it. WS contender Astros? Never. Would love to hear the conversations between Hinch, Luhnow, and the Fresno manager regarding Tucker's readiness. |
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Post by astrosdoug on May 30, 2018 1:46:24 GMT -6
I must say, in all these years of watching Astros baseball, I cannot recall another game in which the enemy committed 5 errors and the Astros still lost the game.
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Post by astrosdoug on May 30, 2018 1:55:16 GMT -6
The Astros come into today's game with the fewest errors recorded in the MLB (in spite of playing about the most games of any team).
What a relief in a season with so many headaches.
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marshall
Veteran
21st Century Luddite
Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
Posts: 4,358 
Likes: 446
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Post by marshall on May 30, 2018 3:44:20 GMT -6
Between Sunday game and tonight it’s 9 hours of baseball and 2 heartbreaking losses. How many hours of heart break watching this team through the decades. I'd say around 10,000 hours. |
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Post by thomasj13 on May 30, 2018 5:18:28 GMT -6
This is General Beringer at NORAD, get me Reid Ryan on the horn Mr. Hinch, after very careful consideration, sir, I've come to the conclusion that your new relief pitching system sucks. ********* outstanding paraphrase. |
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Post by thomasj13 on May 30, 2018 5:24:19 GMT -6
Look the silver lining in these bullpen blown leads is Luhnow will be active come trade deadline. These loses are giving him more reasons not to stay with stats quo....better to have and learn from them now, as opposed to later, after the trade deadline/waiver period, heading into the playoffs, when it could be too late.
I trust Luhnow, so should all of us.
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Post by bannedfan on May 30, 2018 6:30:54 GMT -6
Looking at Rondon’s game logs he rarely pitches over an inning in a game but when he has he’s pitched well.
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Post by Saint on May 30, 2018 8:22:51 GMT -6
Look the silver lining in these bullpen blown leads is Luhnow will be active come trade deadline. These loses are giving him more reasons not to stay with stats quo....better to have and learn from them now, as opposed to later, after the trade deadline/waiver period, heading into the playoffs, when it could be too late. I trust Luhnow, so should all of us. * * * * * They've built too good of a team to let the bullpen keep us from making a deep run. They'll add pieces. |
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Post by olpapa on May 30, 2018 9:02:00 GMT -6
For whatever reason we're not running with the hot hand and there doesn't seem to be any type of roles or real planning. ................. Hinch needs to work out a plan for the bullpen. We've been coasting on great deep games by the starters, and that wasn't going to last forever. I agree with you. I have said this before...., I wish the Astros would lead the way in redefining the roles of the pitchers in the bullpen. The team is out front leading the way in so many areas....., extreme shifts on defense, placing emphasis on spin rates, increasing launch angles, etc, and other teams are following the Astros’ lead. I think it is time to change the way relief pitchers are used. Statistics have their place, but the problem with using stats to guide every move in every game is that games are played on the field, not paper, and in real time...., not spread out over a long period of time. As you have pointed out, every player has an off day from time to time. On the other hand, every player has days where they are on the top of their game and they have the hot hand that day. Statistics are what we get when we throw together the numbers from all of the player’s days...bad days, good days and in between days..., and come up with an average number of what can be expected from the player over the course of time. That is great stuff to have when making decisions on draft day or when considering making a trade, but not so much when making real time, in-game decisions. What matters in each game is the now...not the average over a course of time, but the now. Every time a manager removes a relief pitcher and replaces him with another he increases the odds that he will bring in a pitcher who has a bad day that day. Why take that risk unnecessarily? The routine has become starter for 6 (hopefully), relief pitcher #1 for the seventh, relief pitcher #2 for the eighth and relief pitcher #3 in the ninth. Why? Because that’s the way it’s done. Really? Why is it done that way? Why do we have to keep doing it that way? I hope this “strategy” will soon become a thing of the past. IMO EVERY relief pitchers should be built up in ST, prepared...and expected...to be ready to pitch 2-3 innings when they come into a game. The Astros carry 8 pitchers in their bullpen. There is no reason whatsoever that the manager should use three pitchers to cover innings 7-9 if the first pitcher he brings in is pitching effectively and has been built up and prepared to pitch multiple innings. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If a relief pitcher is brought on in the 7th and is pitching effectively let him continue to pitch as long as he is pitching effectively. If he pitches 3 innings, fine. Rest him a couple days before you use him again. You have 7 other relief pitchers to get you through those next couple days. Hinch does need to work work out a plan for the bullpen. This is the plan I wish he would work out. I think it is the best plan. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:16:28 GMT -6
One thing I'm not sure of is how Giles would react to the Astros getting a new closer. Would he be willing to work as a setup man? If yes, then keep him. If not, he should probably be included in the trade for the new closer. Willing? He’d do what’s he’s told if he worked for me, or he could quit. Sports is different today. Instead of being grateful the team pays you the same while being demoted, a lot of players throw hissyfits. Maybe it’s because future money is at stake when stuff like that happens. Either way a lot of players aren’t saying, “It’s okay, coach. I’ll play wherever you need me.” |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:20:35 GMT -6
The idea today was that he would merely be a defensive sub. He was never supposed to come to bat with the game on the line. But I think he no longer belongs on the team. 2014/15 Astros OK, I get it. WS contender Astros? Never. Exactly. There was a time and place where they needed players mainly for their grit, determination, hustle, and effort. Those days are over now. They just won a World Series. Expectations are even higher for the team now, and rostering a guy batting below the Mendoza Line who strikes out half the time is of little use to the team regardless of what a great guy he is in the clubhouse. |
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Post by Saint on May 30, 2018 9:22:17 GMT -6
I really think Marisnick is just a placeholder until Tucker is here, or Fisher shows improvement in AAA.
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:23:25 GMT -6
I really think Marisnick is just a placeholder until Tucker is here, or Fisher shows improvement in AAA. Well, they can’t wait forever. Tucker needs to show he can hit at Fresno first, or he’ll get eaten alive in the majors. |
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Post by Saint on May 30, 2018 9:25:13 GMT -6
For whatever reason we're not running with the hot hand and there doesn't seem to be any type of roles or real planning. ................. Hinch needs to work out a plan for the bullpen. We've been coasting on great deep games by the starters, and that wasn't going to last forever. I agree with you. I have said this before...., I wish the Astros would lead the way in redefining the roles of the pitchers in the bullpen. The team is out front leading the way in so many areas....., extreme shifts on defense, placing emphasis on spin rates, increasing launch angles, etc, and other teams are following the Astros’ lead. I think it is time to change the way relief pitchers are used. Statistics have their place, but the problem with using stats to guide every move in every game is that games are played on the field, not paper, and in real time...., not spread out over a long period of time. As you have pointed out, every player has an off day from time to time. On the other hand, every player has days where they are on the top of their game and they have the hot hand that day. Statistics are what we get when we throw together the numbers from all of the player’s days...bad days, good days and in between days..., and come up with an average number of what can be expected from the player over the course of time. That is great stuff to have when making decisions on draft day or when considering making a trade, but not so much when making real time, in-game decisions. What matters in each game is the now...not the average over a course of time, but the now. Every time a manager removes a relief pitcher and replaces him with another he increases the odds that he will bring in a pitcher who has a bad day that day. Why take that risk unnecessarily? The routine has become starter for 6 (hopefully), relief pitcher #1 for the seventh, relief pitcher #2 for the eighth and relief pitcher #3 in the ninth. Why? Because that’s the way it’s done. Really? Why is it done that way? Why do we have to keep doing it that way? I hope this “strategy” will soon become a thing of the past. IMO EVERY relief pitchers should be built up in ST, prepared...and expected...to be ready to pitch 2-3 innings when they come into a game. The Astros carry 8 pitchers in their bullpen. There is no reason whatsoever that the manager should use three pitchers to cover innings 7-9 if the first pitcher he brings in is pitching effectively and has been built up and prepared to pitch multiple innings. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If a relief pitcher is brought on in the 7th and is pitching effectively let him continue to pitch as long as he is pitching effectively. If he pitches 3 innings, fine. Rest him a couple days before you use him again. You have 7 other relief pitchers to get you through those next couple days. Hinch does need to work work out a plan for the bullpen. This is the plan I wish he would work out. I think it is the best plan. To me, the best approaches are a combination of utilizing stats and situational data along with riding out hot streaks (or whatever you want to call it). It's a long season so you have to have some balance, but you can balance workload while still having relievers pitch a little longer per appearance. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:29:23 GMT -6
If a reliever has a quick effective inning, I don’t see why said pitcher must be removed the next inning for a fresh arm. Are you telling me that if Devenski has a 7-pitch 8th inning against the heart of the order, then you’ve got to put in Giles for the last three outs? To me that reeks more of coddling egos than placing winning at the forefront of the agenda.
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Post by olpapa on May 30, 2018 9:29:45 GMT -6
Seems to me the stats and situational data are driving every decision and the hot hand/streak is being ignored.
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Post by Saint on May 30, 2018 9:33:59 GMT -6
If a reliever has a quick effective inning, I don’t see why said pitcher must be removed the next inning for a fresh arm. Are you telling me that if Devenski has a 7-pitch 8th inning against the heart of the order, then you’ve got to put in Giles for the last three outs? To me that reeks more of coddling egos than placing winning at the forefront of the agenda. I think we all agree on that. I don't think it's so much about coddling egos, as it is management/FO wanting to space out pitch count over multiple appearances if necessary. |
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Post by Saint on May 30, 2018 9:38:23 GMT -6
Seems to me the stats and situational data are driving every decision and the hot hand/streak is being ignored. That's it exactly. I'm a stats guy (all the way back to memorizing numbers off of the back of baseball cards), but you have to ride people while they're on the top of their game. There are some players that have proven themselves to where you give them the benefit of the doubt if they hit a rough patch, but otherwise, your hot player is your hot player. Ex. Kemp should never be benched for Marisnick at this point. I don't think Kemp has long term value, but he's sure as shit excellent right now. Use him. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:40:38 GMT -6
That's it exactly. I'm a stats guy (all the way back to memorizing numbers off of the back of baseball cards), but you have to ride people while they're on the top of their game. There are some players that have proven themselves to where you give them the benefit of the doubt if they hit a rough patch, but otherwise, your hot player is your hot player. Ex. Kemp should never be benched for Marisnick at this point. I don't think Kemp has long term value, but he's sure as shit excellent right now. Use him. Agreed on all points. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 9:43:08 GMT -6
Colin Cowherd summed up perfectly how I feel about stats.
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Post by bannedfan on May 30, 2018 9:45:50 GMT -6
For whatever reason we're not running with the hot hand and there doesn't seem to be any type of roles or real planning. ................. Hinch needs to work out a plan for the bullpen. We've been coasting on great deep games by the starters, and that wasn't going to last forever. I agree with you. I have said this before...., I wish the Astros would lead the way in redefining the roles of the pitchers in the bullpen. The team is out front leading the way in so many areas....., extreme shifts on defense, placing emphasis on spin rates, increasing launch angles, etc, and other teams are following the Astros’ lead. I think it is time to change the way relief pitchers are used. Statistics have their place, but the problem with using stats to guide every move in every game is that games are played on the field, not paper, and in real time...., not spread out over a long period of time. As you have pointed out, every player has an off day from time to time. On the other hand, every player has days where they are on the top of their game and they have the hot hand that day. Statistics are what we get when we throw together the numbers from all of the player’s days...bad days, good days and in between days..., and come up with an average number of what can be expected from the player over the course of time. That is great stuff to have when making decisions on draft day or when considering making a trade, but not so much when making real time, in-game decisions. What matters in each game is the now...not the average over a course of time, but the now. Every time a manager removes a relief pitcher and replaces him with another he increases the odds that he will bring in a pitcher who has a bad day that day. Why take that risk unnecessarily? The routine has become starter for 6 (hopefully), relief pitcher #1 for the seventh, relief pitcher #2 for the eighth and relief pitcher #3 in the ninth. Why? Because that’s the way it’s done. Really? Why is it done that way? Why do we have to keep doing it that way? I hope this “strategy” will soon become a thing of the past. IMO EVERY relief pitchers should be built up in ST, prepared...and expected...to be ready to pitch 2-3 innings when they come into a game. The Astros carry 8 pitchers in their bullpen. There is no reason whatsoever that the manager should use three pitchers to cover innings 7-9 if the first pitcher he brings in is pitching effectively and has been built up and prepared to pitch multiple innings. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If a relief pitcher is brought on in the 7th and is pitching effectively let him continue to pitch as long as he is pitching effectively. If he pitches 3 innings, fine. Rest him a couple days before you use him again. You have 7 other relief pitchers to get you through those next couple days. Hinch does need to work work out a plan for the bullpen. This is the plan I wish he would work out. I think it is the best plan. And he does it that way in the playoffs. |
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Post by olpapa on May 30, 2018 10:19:53 GMT -6
I agree with you. I have said this before...., I wish the Astros would lead the way in redefining the roles of the pitchers in the bullpen. The team is out front leading the way in so many areas....., extreme shifts on defense, placing emphasis on spin rates, increasing launch angles, etc, and other teams are following the Astros’ lead. I think it is time to change the way relief pitchers are used. Statistics have their place, but the problem with using stats to guide every move in every game is that games are played on the field, not paper, and in real time...., not spread out over a long period of time. As you have pointed out, every player has an off day from time to time. On the other hand, every player has days where they are on the top of their game and they have the hot hand that day. Statistics are what we get when we throw together the numbers from all of the player’s days...bad days, good days and in between days..., and come up with an average number of what can be expected from the player over the course of time. That is great stuff to have when making decisions on draft day or when considering making a trade, but not so much when making real time, in-game decisions. What matters in each game is the now...not the average over a course of time, but the now. Every time a manager removes a relief pitcher and replaces him with another he increases the odds that he will bring in a pitcher who has a bad day that day. Why take that risk unnecessarily? The routine has become starter for 6 (hopefully), relief pitcher #1 for the seventh, relief pitcher #2 for the eighth and relief pitcher #3 in the ninth. Why? Because that’s the way it’s done. Really? Why is it done that way? Why do we have to keep doing it that way? I hope this “strategy” will soon become a thing of the past. IMO EVERY relief pitchers should be built up in ST, prepared...and expected...to be ready to pitch 2-3 innings when they come into a game. The Astros carry 8 pitchers in their bullpen. There is no reason whatsoever that the manager should use three pitchers to cover innings 7-9 if the first pitcher he brings in is pitching effectively and has been built up and prepared to pitch multiple innings. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If a relief pitcher is brought on in the 7th and is pitching effectively let him continue to pitch as long as he is pitching effectively. If he pitches 3 innings, fine. Rest him a couple days before you use him again. You have 7 other relief pitchers to get you through those next couple days. Hinch does need to work work out a plan for the bullpen. This is the plan I wish he would work out. I think it is the best plan. And he does it that way in the playoffs. Precisely....and basically he did it with two guys....Morton and McCullers. When you have 8 arms in the bullpen (and especially when you have other quality arms in the minors if needed during the season) there is no reason whatsoever that the bullpen arms could not be used in that manner during the regular season. |
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Post by olpapa on May 30, 2018 10:20:48 GMT -6
Colin Cowherd summed up perfectly how I feel about stats. He nailed it. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 11:34:52 GMT -6
MANalytics: don’t be a slave to the numbers. Use them to guide decisions, but don’t rely on them completely. |
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 11:43:10 GMT -6
Look the silver lining in these bullpen blown leads is Luhnow will be active come trade deadline. These loses are giving him more reasons not to stay with stats quo....better to have and learn from them now, as opposed to later, after the trade deadline/waiver period, heading into the playoffs, when it could be too late. I trust Luhnow, so should all of us. Forget Morey, in Luhnow we trust. |
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Post by bearbryant on May 30, 2018 14:04:56 GMT -6
Between Sunday game and tonight it’s 9 hours of baseball and 2 heartbreaking losses. How many hours of heart break watching this team through the decades. |
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Post by blcoach8 on May 30, 2018 22:10:06 GMT -6
I started listening in 1962 to Gene Elston, Loel Passe, and Al Helfer. Sometiems, our local TV station would pick up a Sunday game, but, that was it. Never saw much of them on TV until I got a satellite dish in the early 80's
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Post by unionstation82 on May 30, 2018 22:30:04 GMT -6
How many hours of heart break watching this team through the decades. Homeboy giving me a shoutout. What’s up, my n-word? |
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