Keuchel

[thomasj13]

Nov 16, 2018 11:55:55 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Nov 16, 2018 10:03:47 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

There are two parts to the equation, though.

I don't have any problems with that end of the equation trying to sell high on his client. I just hope that our end of the equation doesn't fall for the padded resume. 

I am not opposed to offering Dallas an intelligent contract (intelligent for both sides), but I do not want them to overpay him and miss out on any potential upgrades that may be available.

Well said.

Given the lack of quality starting pitchers available, I think Keuchel is going to be overpaid.

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 12:13:05 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Nov 16, 2018 9:48:04 GMT -6 Saint said:

I see...  So you don't believe that sore players should rest sometimes instead of creating injuries or making injuries worse.  Got it. 

Lots of guys play with soreness and injuries are not created because of it.  We have no way of knowing if Keuchel would have been injured if he had pitched with soreness.  I don't believe a guy should spend 6 weeks or more on the DL with "soreness" or "discomfort".  I also don't believe the club should withhold the truth and keep making excuses for the player.   Frankly, I'm sick of Keuchel and hope he moves on.

But it all depends on the situation.  In 2016 he tried to pitch through the pain and it didn't go well.  He pitched poorly.  He needed to rest.  In 2017 he was pitching excellent but he was going to be needed in the postseason, so better to rest him and get him right for the postseason (which proved successful).  

There are times to play through soreness and risk further injury and times to not.  

edit:  As far as being sick of Keuchel goes, I hope we don't miss him.  That's a lot of innings to successfully replace when/if he leaves. 

[thomasj13]

Nov 16, 2018 12:27:49 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 16, 2018 12:13:05 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Lots of guys play with soreness and injuries are not created because of it.  We have no way of knowing if Keuchel would have been injured if he had pitched with soreness.  I don't believe a guy should spend 6 weeks or more on the DL with "soreness" or "discomfort".  I also don't believe the club should withhold the truth and keep making excuses for the player.   Frankly, I'm sick of Keuchel and hope he moves on.

But it all depends on the situation.  In 2016 he tried to pitch through the pain and it didn't go well.  He pitched poorly.  He needed to rest.  In 2017 he was pitching excellent but he was going to be needed in the postseason, so better to rest him and get him right for the postseason (which proved successful).  

There are times to play through soreness and risk further injury and times to not.  

edit:  As far as being sick of Keuchel goes, I hope we don't miss him.  That's a lot of innings to successfully replace when/if he leaves. 

I think the Astros will miss Keuchel next two seasons, and after that, they will be thankful they dodge that bullet (big contract)...

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 13:04:57 GMT -6 thomasj13 said:

Nov 16, 2018 12:27:49 GMT -6 Saint said:

But it all depends on the situation.  In 2016 he tried to pitch through the pain and it didn't go well.  He pitched poorly.  He needed to rest.  In 2017 he was pitching excellent but he was going to be needed in the postseason, so better to rest him and get him right for the postseason (which proved successful).  

There are times to play through soreness and risk further injury and times to not.  

edit:  As far as being sick of Keuchel goes, I hope we don't miss him.  That's a lot of innings to successfully replace when/if he leaves. 

I think the Astros will miss Keuchel next two seasons, and after that, they will be thankful they dodge that bullet (big contract)...

It all depends on structuring and how he ages.  A front-loaded contract with more performance-based bonuses on the back end would be the way to go for a player like him.  If he ages well and gets the desired results, he's worth the performance bonuses (and go ahead and make them good bonuses ex. an extra 5-6 million for an ERA under 3.50 or something).  If he doesn't age well, you're not getting killed by the later years. 

This is what I posted before that I like as a fair deal for him from somebody:

1st Year: $20 Million
2nd Year: $18 Million
3rd Year: $16 Million
4th Year: $14 Million
5th Year: Option based on 150+ IP in the 4th year for $12 million

Any season top-10 in CY Voting = Additional $5 million

4-years $68 million guaranteed with a potential for a 5-year $80 million deal and an additional $20 million in performance bonuses.  Could be a $100 million deal if he pitches well.

[bearbryant]

[blcoach8]

Nov 16, 2018 12:27:49 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 16, 2018 12:13:05 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Lots of guys play with soreness and injuries are not created because of it.  We have no way of knowing if Keuchel would have been injured if he had pitched with soreness.  I don't believe a guy should spend 6 weeks or more on the DL with "soreness" or "discomfort".  I also don't believe the club should withhold the truth and keep making excuses for the player.   Frankly, I'm sick of Keuchel and hope he moves on.

But it all depends on the situation.  In 2016 he tried to pitch through the pain and it didn't go well.  He pitched poorly.  He needed to rest.  In 2017 he was pitching excellent but he was going to be needed in the postseason, so better to rest him and get him right for the postseason (which proved successful).  

There are times to play through soreness and risk further injury and times to not.  

edit:  As far as being sick of Keuchel goes, I hope we don't miss him.  That's a lot of innings to successfully replace when/if he leaves. 

Since Keuchel is likely gone and McCullers won't pitch at all in 2019, it is imperative we sign Morton.  It also means we can't and should not include Whitley in a trade for anybody.  There are sources reporting that the Marlins are demanding either Whitley or Tucker in any deal for Realmuto.  I can see trading Tucker, but, not Whitley. I hope Luhnow doesn't trade either of them.  

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 14:11:48 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Nov 16, 2018 12:27:49 GMT -6 Saint said:

But it all depends on the situation.  In 2016 he tried to pitch through the pain and it didn't go well.  He pitched poorly.  He needed to rest.  In 2017 he was pitching excellent but he was going to be needed in the postseason, so better to rest him and get him right for the postseason (which proved successful).  

There are times to play through soreness and risk further injury and times to not.  

edit:  As far as being sick of Keuchel goes, I hope we don't miss him.  That's a lot of innings to successfully replace when/if he leaves. 

Since Keuchel is likely gone and McCullers won't pitch at all in 2019, it is imperative we sign Morton.  It also means we can't and should not include Whitley in a trade for anybody.  There are sources reporting that the Marlins are demanding either Whitley or Tucker in any deal for Realmuto.  I can see trading Tucker, but, not Whitley. I hope Luhnow doesn't trade either of them.  

Gotta give to get.

[ɮօʀȶǟʐ]

Nov 16, 2018 15:01:13 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 16, 2018 14:11:48 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Since Keuchel is likely gone and McCullers won't pitch at all in 2019, it is imperative we sign Morton.  It also means we can't and should not include Whitley in a trade for anybody.  There are sources reporting that the Marlins are demanding either Whitley or Tucker in any deal for Realmuto.  I can see trading Tucker, but, not Whitley. I hope Luhnow doesn't trade either of them.  

Gotta give to get.

Are you saying both Tucker and Whitley should be made available in a trade?

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 15:31:36 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Nov 16, 2018 15:01:13 GMT -6 Saint said:

Gotta give to get.

Are you saying both Tucker and Whitley should be made available in a trade?

I don't think any of our prospects should be untouchable depending on what we're getting in return. It has to be worth it though. Neither should be used for a one-year rental.  But multiple years from proven players? Possibly.  

Mostly I meant that players like Realmuto are going to require real prospect value.  I wouldn't expect anything less than something like Tucker, Stassi/Stubbs, and two additional solid-good prospects for a player like Realmuto.

[ɮօʀȶǟʐ]

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

[bearbryant]

Greinke's owed $100M over the next 3 years. It shouldn't take 2 top-10 prospects to land him if Arizona's dumping payroll with that move

[blcoach8]

Nov 16, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

No.  Grienke has a ridiculous contract that we don't need.  Wait unitl Goldy is  a free agent and sign him.  I would not make that deal at all.

[thomasj13]

Nov 16, 2018 16:46:53 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Nov 16, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

No.  Grienke has a ridiculous contract that we don't need.  Wait unitl Goldy is  a free agent and sign him.  I would not make that deal at all.

Sign Nelson Cruz this year to a 2 year deal, and go after Goldy next year in FA.

[unionstation82]

Nov 16, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

That’s it. Go sit in the corner.

[ɮօʀȶǟʐ]

Nov 16, 2018 20:04:22 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Nov 16, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

That’s it. Go sit in the corner.

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

[talshill]

If Luhnow were to swap Tucker/Whitley for Grienke/Goldschmidt, the cost would end up being more than just those two. Paying a 38 y/o pitcher nearly 35 million (last year of his contract) makes my blood run cold.

[unionstation82]

Nov 16, 2018 20:21:44 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Nov 16, 2018 20:04:22 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

That’s it. Go sit in the corner.

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

Todd would trade Whitley and Tucker to get Keuchel, as impossible as it sounds.

[unionstation82]

Nov 16, 2018 20:47:33 GMT -6 talshill said:

If Luhnow were to swap Tucker/Whitley for Grienke/Goldschmidt, the cost would end up being more than just those two. Paying a 38 y/o pitcher nearly 35 million (last year of his contract) makes my blood run cold.

Add the fact that you’d only have to wait a year to try and sign Goldschmidt rather than trading the farm to get him now.

[blcoach8]

Nov 16, 2018 20:21:44 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Nov 16, 2018 20:04:22 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

That’s it. Go sit in the corner.

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

Grienke is not worth what he is being paid......Goldy can be signed as a FA.....makes sense to sign Cruz as the DH and hang on to Whitley and Tucker. If we  trade either of them, it will come back and haunt us.    NO way to I trade one or both of them for Grienke and Goldschmidt.

[blcoach8]

Nov 16, 2018 22:19:32 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Nov 16, 2018 20:21:44 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

Todd would trade Whitley and Tucker to get Keuchel, as impossible as it sounds.

i wouldn't bet against it.  I think he is devastated that Keuchel is probably gone.

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 15:42:40 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Would you trade Tucker + Whitley for Grienke + Goldy?

Three years of a top-5 pitcher and an MVP candidate for a year for just two prospects?

Honestly, that's tempting if they eat some of Grienke's salary. Prospects are no guarantees and think of that 2019 team (and pitching depth past 2019 when we have big holes). They'd have to eat some salary though.

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 20:21:44 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

Nov 16, 2018 20:04:22 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

That’s it. Go sit in the corner.

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

You've bashed people for making ridiculous trades where we don't give up any good prospects, and then when I say you have to give good to get good, you make it sound like I'm not making sense.

What do YOU think it should be?

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 22:19:32 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Nov 16, 2018 20:21:44 GMT -6 ɮօʀȶǟʐ said:

I'm just trying to understand old "Just the facts, ma'am" Saint's way of thinking. Corch said he hoped they didn't sell both Tucker and Whitley, to which Saint said "gotta pay to play" or some shit...so, I'm endeavoring to figure out what he thinks our kids are worth.

Todd would trade Whitley and Tucker to get Keuchel, as impossible as it sounds.

Umm no. Don't start making stuff up like, Corch. 🙄

[Saint]

Grienke is 32-18 with a 3.20 ERA and 409 IP over the last two years (both all-star worthy).

That's pretty damn good production if he could manage that for another year or two.

Verlander
Cole
Grienke's
McHugh
James

Springer
Altuve
Bregman
Goldschmidt
Correa
Gurriel/White
Reddick
Tucker
Catcher

I mean....damn. That potential is at least worth considering depending on how much salary was covered by AZ.

We're going to get 4 picks in the first 3 rounds this year, right? Still have Alvarez and Baukusksksagskdas, right? I can think of worse plans.

[blcoach8]

Nov 16, 2018 23:16:14 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 16, 2018 22:19:32 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Todd would trade Whitley and Tucker to get Keuchel, as impossible as it sounds.

Umm no. Don't start making stuff up like, Corch. 🙄

you are the one  who says things and then tries to lie his way out of it.

By the way, Tucker and Whitley aren't just any two prospects.....they are the top 2 we have and both are rated as "can't miss".  You don't  trade a number one pick who is a 6'7" pitcher whose velocity is as high as Whitley's . He could end up being in the category of JR Richard.

[Saint]

Nov 16, 2018 23:38:44 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Nov 16, 2018 23:16:14 GMT -6 Saint said:

Umm no. Don't start making stuff up like, Corch. 🙄

you are the one  who says things and then tries to lie his way out of it.

By the way, Tucker and Whitley aren't just any two prospects.....they are the top 2 we have and both are rated as "can't miss".  You don't  trade a number one pick who is a 6'7" pitcher whose velocity is as high as Whitley's . He could end up being in the category of JR Richard.

No such thing as "can't miss". I wouldn't give them up for mediocrity, but if you get proven MLB all-star caliber talent for multiple years, I think it's worth a discussion.

[unionstation82]

Nov 16, 2018 23:16:14 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 16, 2018 22:19:32 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Todd would trade Whitley and Tucker to get Keuchel, as impossible as it sounds.

Umm no. Don't start making stuff up like, Corch. 🙄

Positivity like Keuchel is not a laughing matter.

[blcoach8]

Nov 17, 2018 8:18:41 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Nov 16, 2018 23:16:14 GMT -6 Saint said:

Umm no. Don't start making stuff up like, Corch. 🙄

Positivity like Keuchel is not a laughing matter.

he gave away his total bias where Keuchel is concerned when he compared him to Greg Maddux.

[Saint]

Nov 17, 2018 9:32:42 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

Nov 17, 2018 8:18:41 GMT -6 unionstation82 said:

Positivity like Keuchel is not a laughing matter.

he gave away his total bias where Keuchel is concerned when he compared him to Greg Maddux.

I used him as an example of the type of pitcher they both are. You're obviously just too dumb to understand it.

[blcoach8]

Nov 17, 2018 10:25:29 GMT -6 Saint said:

Nov 17, 2018 9:32:42 GMT -6 blcoach8 said:

he gave away his total bias where Keuchel is concerned when he compared him to Greg Maddux.

I used him as an example of the type of pitcher they both are. You're obviously just too dumb to understand it.

I knew exactly what you were doing, dumbass. You made a poor comparison between Keuchel and Maddux. Neither relied on velocity,but, there is no comparing the two when you look at the individual production of each pitcher.  Maddux won well over 300 games and won multiple Cy Youngs.  Keuchel had ONE great year when he won the Cy Young., You can spin it any way you choose, but, Keuchel is not one of the top pitchers. 

You think that people who don't buy into your BS are dumb which proves you to be an idiot.