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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 12:44:11 GMT -6
I might offer Alvarez, Bukauskus, Dawson, Reddick and cash. So in your proposed offer is Bukauskus and Dawson =, <, or > than James? Because I would do either one. Why would you include a young pitcher like James with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Jan 12, 2019 13:01:12 GMT -6
So in your proposed offer is Bukauskus and Dawson =, <, or > than James? Because I would do either one. with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. Because to get something good you have to give something good? |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 12, 2019 13:20:59 GMT -6
I really want Kluber....along with him Seth Lugo and Justin Wilson...then I would feel good about next year... Any thought what it would take to get Lugo? I hope we could send Marisnick + Kemp + top #20 prospect to get him. Kemp+Fisher and a top 20. We need to keep Jake for defense. Lmao, you kill me, Uncle Marisnick. In one breath you’re all “f*** Correa, offer him $3.75 or he can go back to Puerto Rico!!”, and in the next it’s “must keep my lord and savior Jake From Suck Farm...pay him his jillions!!” |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 13:23:18 GMT -6
Why would you include a young pitcher like James with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. Because to get something good you have to give something good? True, but James should not be included in a deal for Kluber. |
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Post by m240 on Jan 12, 2019 13:23:28 GMT -6
So in your proposed offer is Bukauskus and Dawson =, <, or > than James? Because I would do either one. Why would you include a young pitcher like James with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. It is really pretty simple, in my opinion you do not get Kluber without giving James. |
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Post by m240 on Jan 12, 2019 13:25:57 GMT -6
Because to get something good you have to give something good? True, but James should not be included in a deal for Kluber. So if the Indians said, "no James, no deal", you would walk away and not trade for Kluber? |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 13:26:20 GMT -6
Kemp+Fisher and a top 20. We need to keep Jake for defense. Lmao, you kill me, Uncle Marisnick. In one breath you’re all “Feck Correa, offer him $3.75 or he can go back to Puerto Rico!!”, and in the next it’s “must keep my lord and savior Jake From Suck Farm...pay him his jillions!!” Tell me what Correa did to earn a $4 million raise and I'll vote to give it to him. Jake did a hell of a lot more to earn his money than Correa did. Correa sat out half of the season with a mysterious back issue that nobody seemed to understand and wants a big raise for doing it...........Piss on him. Earn it and then ask for it. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 13:27:17 GMT -6
Why would you include a young pitcher like James with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. It is really pretty simple, in my opinion you do not get Kluber without giving James. If that is the case. let them keep Kluber. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 13:28:50 GMT -6
True, but James should not be included in a deal for Kluber. So if the Indians said, "no James, no deal", you would walk away and not trade for Kluber? I would offer Valdez instead. If they wouldn't take it I'd walk away..........NO JAMES |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 12, 2019 13:44:15 GMT -6
I really, really wish you’d quit drinking so much, Corch. Shits gonna kill you one day.
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 13:52:49 GMT -6
I really, really wish you’d quit drinking so much, Corch. Shits gonna kill you one day. yeah, this Coke Zero will be the death of me. |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Jan 12, 2019 13:59:15 GMT -6
Why would you include a young pitcher like James with the velocity he has on his fastball and showed great potential when we brought him up last season? Besides Whitley, he is the one pitching prospect that I would not offer in a trade. It is really pretty simple, in my opinion you do not get Kluber without giving James. None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial.
* BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout)
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 12, 2019 14:45:09 GMT -6
You’ve got to wonder what the plan is for the Yankees. LeMahieu isn’t the greatest hitter, but he’s a starter based on defense alone since 2B isn’t a premiere offensive position. However, they already have Gleyber Torres there, which prompts him to now shift over to SS, which is already occupied by Tulowitzki and later Gregorius. Unless Andújar the 3B gets traded, I have no idea where Machado would play. The Yankees mentioned they were going to use DJ around the infield as a utility type player, also giving good time at first. Where does also leave Bird and Voit. One thing with the surplus they have in the infield Scranton Wilkes-Barre is going to have a hell of a team in AAA. Hear that Bortaz:) LOL |
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 12, 2019 14:47:25 GMT -6
Give the Indians Kemp and Reed and Kluber will fall in the Stros laps.
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Post by thomasj13 on Jan 12, 2019 14:54:53 GMT -6
It is really pretty simple, in my opinion you do not get Kluber without giving James. None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial.
* BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout)
You have to understand our dear Corch here.....any player that in a short stint in the majors shows promise or any top rated prospect in the minors are basically better than a 2 Time CYA, top #5 MLB pitcher with a great 3 team friendly contract....however, once that prospect as short spell of not producing in the majors, he becomes an instant worthless dumbass....for the time being James and Martin are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kluber. |
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Post by olpapa on Jan 12, 2019 15:22:03 GMT -6
I might offer Alvarez, Bukauskus, Dawson, Reddick and cash. So in your proposed offer is Bukauskus and Dawson =, <, or > than James? Because I would do either one. I would not trade James. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Jan 12, 2019 15:30:37 GMT -6
You’ve got to wonder what the plan is for the Yankees. LeMahieu isn’t the greatest hitter, but he’s a starter based on defense alone since 2B isn’t a premiere offensive position. However, they already have Gleyber Torres there, which prompts him to now shift over to SS, which is already occupied by Tulowitzki and later Gregorius. Unless Andújar the 3B gets traded, I have no idea where Machado would play. The Yankees mentioned they were going to use DJ around the infield as a utility type player, also giving good time at first. Where does also leave Bird and Voit. One thing with the surplus they have in the infield Scranton Wilkes-Barre is going to have a hell of a team in AAA. Hear that Bortaz:) LOL Thanks, Mr. Steinbrenner. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 15:40:18 GMT -6
So in your proposed offer is Bukauskus and Dawson =, <, or > than James? Because I would do either one. I would not trade James. Another voice of reason with enough sense to keep James. |
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Post by Hunter McCormick on Jan 12, 2019 15:40:57 GMT -6
None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial. * BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) You have to understand our dear Corch here.....any player that in a short stint in the majors shows promise or any top rated prospect in the minors are basically better than a 2 Time CYA, top #5 MLB pitcher with a great 3 team friendly contract....however, once that prospect as short spell of not producing in the majors, he becomes an instant worthless dumbass....for the time being James and Martin are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kluber. I think it's admirable to place a high value on prospects in your system ... to a point. But at some point it becomes a bit silly. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 15:45:39 GMT -6
None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial.
* BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout)
You have to understand our dear Corch here.....any player that in a short stint in the majors shows promise or any top rated prospect in the minors are basically better than a 2 Time CYA, top #5 MLB pitcher with a great 3 team friendly contract....however, once that prospect as short spell of not producing in the majors, he becomes an instant worthless dumbass....for the time being James and Martin are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kluber. you forgot to mention the last time this CYA winner won a playoff game........great in the regular season, chokes in the playoffs. I have never mentioned Martin.......James showed tremendous promise when brought up last season and should not be included in a deal for Kluber. When that "short spell of not producing" ends up being half a season, he is not worth his paycheck. If you think Correa deserves a $4 million raise, you are not as smart as I thought. |
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Post by paastrosfan on Jan 12, 2019 16:12:47 GMT -6
One plus about Kluber is that you get consistency during the season. Any Baseball fan should know the playoffs are a crap shoot.
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marshall
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Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
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Post by marshall on Jan 12, 2019 16:14:45 GMT -6
Lmao, you kill me, Uncle Marisnick. In one breath you’re all “Feck Correa, offer him $3.75 or he can go back to Puerto Rico!!”, and in the next it’s “must keep my lord and savior Jake From Suck Farm...pay him his jillions!!” Tell me what Correa did to earn a $4 million raise and I'll vote to give it to him. Jake did a hell of a lot more to earn his money than Correa did. Correa sat out half of the season with a mysterious back issue that nobody seemed to understand and wants a big raise for doing it...........Piss on him. Earn it and then ask for it. There's nothing mysterious about back issues. You obviously haven't had one yourself and think anyone with one is a slackard. Of course I may be a little sensitive about it myself as I deal with periodic back spasms as I type this... |
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Post by abregmanfan on Jan 12, 2019 16:24:25 GMT -6
Tell me what Correa did to earn a $4 million raise and I'll vote to give it to him. Jake did a hell of a lot more to earn his money than Correa did. Correa sat out half of the season with a mysterious back issue that nobody seemed to understand and wants a big raise for doing it...........Piss on him. Earn it and then ask for it. There's nothing mysterious about back issues. You obviously haven't had one yourself and think anyone with one is a slackard. Of course I may be a little sensitive about it myself as I deal with periodic back spasms as I type this... I feel your pain Marshall. |
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Post by olpapa on Jan 12, 2019 16:28:16 GMT -6
MLBTR is reporting that the Indians are asking a return for Kluber equal to the return that the White Sox got from Boston for Chris Sale. I don’t know that Kluber is worth that kind of return. Sale was 27 years old and controllable for 3 years at a total of $38 million at the time he was traded to Boston. Kluber is 32 years old and is controllable for 3 years at a total of $52.5 million. Kluber is 5 years older and owed $14.5 million more for his 3 years of control than was Sale at the time he was traded.
Boston gave up their #2, #4, #8 and #28 prospects to get Sale from the White Sox. That would be like the Astros giving up Whitley, James, Bukauskus and Jeremy Pena for Kluber. No way would I do that. I think an offer of our #3 Alvarez, #8 Bukauskus, #20 Ronnie Dawson and Reddick is a reasonable offer.. If Cleveland wants a second pitcher in the deal, substitute Brandon Bielak, our #19, for Dawson. If that isn’t enough, let the Dodgers or Padres overpay for Kluber.
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Post by olpapa on Jan 12, 2019 16:39:11 GMT -6
Looking at the most recent mlb.com prospect rankings, I see that two of the three we got from the Mets in the JD Davis deal are now ranked in our top 30. Luis Santana is #22 and Ross Adolph is #30. Also, Bryan Abreu, the kid who has never pitched above Low A ball that Luhnow placed on the 40-man roster to protect him from the Rule 5 Draft, is now ranked as our #10 prospect.
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marshall
Veteran
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Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
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Post by marshall on Jan 12, 2019 16:42:08 GMT -6
It is really pretty simple, in my opinion you do not get Kluber without giving James. None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial.
* BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout)
Thanks for the figures. That's $52.5M for three years and his market value is $75M-$90M so we're looking at $22.5M - $37.5M in excess value in return. A league average pitcher is getting $10M-$12M/yr and the first three years he's getting about $500K for an excess value of $8.5-$10.5M/yr or $24M-$30M. So adding a little for excess value in the Arbitration years gets us to close to equal excess value for ONE league average Pitcher. This is NOT saying they are equivalent in Quality, just in excess value because the prospects are cheap.
This is why trades are difficult for those who only understand quality and not value which is different.
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 16:47:42 GMT -6
Tell me what Correa did to earn a $4 million raise and I'll vote to give it to him. Jake did a hell of a lot more to earn his money than Correa did. Correa sat out half of the season with a mysterious back issue that nobody seemed to understand and wants a big raise for doing it...........Piss on him. Earn it and then ask for it. There's nothing mysterious about back issues. You obviously haven't had one yourself and think anyone with one is a slackard. Of course I may be a little sensitive about it myself as I deal with periodic back spasms as I type this... All true, but, a day to day issue turned into missing about half the season. In any case, he should not be given a big raise. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 16:49:25 GMT -6
MLBTR is reporting that the Indians are asking a return for Kluber equal to the return that the White Sox got from Boston for Chris Sale. I don’t know that Kluber is worth that kind of return. Sale was 27 years old and controllable for 3 years at a total of $38 million at the time he was traded to Boston. Kluber is 32 years old and is controllable for 3 years at a total of $52.5 million. Kluber is 5 years older and owed $14.5 million more for his 3 years of control than was Sale at the time he was traded. Boston gave up their #2, #4, #8 and #28 prospects to get Sale from the White Sox. That would be like the Astros giving up Whitley, James, Bukauskus and Jeremy Pena for Kluber. No way would I do that. I think an offer of our #3 Alvarez, #8 Bukauskus, #20 Ronnie Dawson and Reddick is a reasonable offer.. If Cleveland wants a second pitcher in the deal, substitute Brandon Bielak, our #19, for Dawson. If that isn’t enough, let the Dodgers or Padres overpay for Kluber. Kluber is not worth what it would take to get him and he's certainly not worth what the Red Sox gave up to get Sale. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Jan 12, 2019 16:50:51 GMT -6
Looking at the most recent mlb.com prospect rankings, I see that two of the three we got from the Mets in the JD Davis deal are now ranked in our top 30. Luis Santana is #22 and Ross Adolph is #30. Also, Bryan Abreu, the kid who has never pitched above Low A ball that Luhnow placed on the 40-man roster to protect him from the Rule 5 Draft, is now ranked as our #10 prospect. Davis was never going to break into our lineup. I think Luhnow got more than a fair return for him. |
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Post by olpapa on Jan 12, 2019 17:01:39 GMT -6
None of us know for certain exactly what the Indians would want in return, but since we're talking about a certified ace, two-time CYA winner and apparently three years of control* at a very reasonable salary, it will be substantial.
* BBref shows him at 2019 (33 y/o) - $17,000,000 2020 (34 y/o) - $17,500,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout) 2021 (35 y/o) - $18,000,000 (team option or a $1milllion buyout)
Thanks for the figures. That's $52.5M for three years and his market value is $75M-$90M so we're looking at $22.5M - $37.5M in excess value in return. A league average pitcher is getting $10M-$12M/yr and the first three years he's getting about $500K for an excess value of $8.5-$10.5M/yr or $24M-$30M. So adding a little for excess value in the Arbitration years gets us to close to equal excess value for ONE league average Pitcher. This is NOT saying they are equivalent in Quality, just in excess value because the prospects are cheap.
This is why trades are difficult for those who only understand quality and not value which is different.
I understand that both Sale and Kluber are elite quality SPs. I also understand that Kluber at age 32 and owed $52.5 million over the next 3 years is not as valuable as a 27 year old Sale who was owed $38 million over the next 3 years when he was traded in December 2016.. |
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