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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 13:08:52 GMT -6
Exactly right. People complain about players like Correa who are injured and miss time, but then want Marwin paid millions when he is essentially absent for half of the season...and isn't even injured. He just half-asses it through 80 games, then gets hot and wins over the fan base again. Agreed. That's the only issue with Marwin is half a year he is gone. And his Avg gos to poop. Then 2nd late half and play offs it's like I wanna play now. And the avg goes marginal. He is a lose when it comes to play offs. But essentially he is t a big lose for the season. But like you said. DH who hits for power and Avg 1B who hits for power and Avg C who hits for avg And some pitching I like Marwin. I'm thankful for what he did for us over the years, but I am fine with him leaving in FA. Lets go get Michael Brantley. |
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Post by olpapa on Nov 14, 2018 13:23:25 GMT -6
Marwin is a solid player with value, but he's hardly a major loss. Getting a catcher, DH, and some pitching help is far more important. I agree. Marwin may get a Zobrist-like contract. The fact that Luhnow chose not to make the $17.9 million offer for one year of Marwin doesn’t mean he isn’t making an effort to re-sign Marwin to a multi-year deal at a lesser AAV. The deal Zobrist signed was for a AAV of $14 million. I don’t believe Marwin is entitled to a better deal than Zobrist got. Of course, I’m sure Boras does. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 13:42:19 GMT -6
Marwin is a solid player with value, but he's hardly a major loss. Getting a catcher, DH, and some pitching help is far more important. So, a guy who plays all 4 infield positions plus the outfield and is a switch-hitter who has power from both sides of the plate is not a major loss. Having him means we can carry an extra pitcher if needed without being weak at other positions. He is worth a lot to the Astros., He will be a bigger loss than keuchel. Please let us know who we can get that does everything Marwin does at the same level he does it. I was ready to dump him at the All-star break. We can be glad we didn't because when the injuries started piling up, Marwin was the guy who filled in for both Correa and Altuve. Without him, it was doubtful we would have won the division. He's worth at least a three-year deal in the area of $45-50 million. I agree that we need a catcher and we have prospects and a couple of other guys to use in trades.. Sign Cruz to fill the DH spot.. If they think Tucker is ready to play every day, trade Kemp in a deal for a catcher. |
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Post by bearbryant on Nov 14, 2018 13:43:38 GMT -6
I hope Jeff's not trying to sign Marwin for four more years. I'd rather have Keuchel for multi-years if forced to choose
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 13:48:21 GMT -6
I hope Jeff's not trying to sign Marwin for four more years. I'd rather have Keuchel for multi-years if forced to choose I totally disagree. I would not sign either for four years, and, if I have to choose between them, I take Marwin hands down. We can make up for the loss of a pitcher who consistently gets us behind in half of the games he starts. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Nov 14, 2018 13:50:33 GMT -6
In no way is a utility player worth more than a 3.xx ERA left handed pitcher.
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 13:51:49 GMT -6
Marwin is a solid player with value, but he's hardly a major loss. Getting a catcher, DH, and some pitching help is far more important. So, a guy who plays all 4 infield positions plus the outfield and is a switch-hitter who has power from both sides of the plate is not a major loss. Having him means we can carry an extra pitcher if needed without being weak at other positions. He is worth a lot to the Astros., He will be a bigger loss than keuchel. Please let us know who we can get that does everything Marwin does at the same level he does it. I was ready to dump him at the All-star break. We can be glad we didn't because when the injuries started piling up, Marwin was the guy who filled in for both Correa and Altuve. Without him, it was doubtful we would have won the division. He's worth at least a three-year deal in the area of $45-50 million. I agree that we need a catcher and we have prospects and a couple of other guys to use in trades.. Sign Cruz to fill the DH spot.. If they think Tucker is ready to play every day, trade Kemp in a deal for a catcher. You don't need one guy to do four things if you have multiple other guys that can do two-three things. If we had a LFer, we'd have barely noticed Marwin the last couple of years at all. Kemp can play 2B and OF, Gurriel can play 1B, 2B, and 3B, Bregman can play 3B and SS, White can play 1B and probably cover some other areas in an emergency. You don't pay a roleplayer a ton of money. He's certainly worth a 3-4 year deal for somebody, but not over other holes we have to fill. You can't pay everybody ton of money. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 13:53:59 GMT -6
I hope Jeff's not trying to sign Marwin for four more years. I'd rather have Keuchel for multi-years if forced to choose I totally disagree. I would not sign either for four years, and, if I have to choose between them, I take Marwin hands down. We can make up for the loss of a pitcher who consistently gets us behind in half of the games he starts. Wait...so a roleplayer with barely over league-average career numbers is worth more than a starting pitcher who was an all-star last year and pitched 200+ innings with above-average numbers this year? Come on, bro...I know you don't care for Kuechel but that's crazy talk. |
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Post by nathangarza29 on Nov 14, 2018 14:07:47 GMT -6
Neither Keuchal or Gonzalez is worth a co tract at this point. Which makes you think Jake is expendable aswell.
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Post by bearbryant on Nov 14, 2018 14:14:07 GMT -6
If Jake is expendable we're gonna need an OF from somewhere. Esp. if Tucker bats .200 for the 1st 6 weeks. I'm not sure I trust this report he's a likely non-tender candidate. Doesn't make sense given our depth
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2018 14:15:58 GMT -6
Kyle Tucker has a 55m Forrest Whitley has a 54m Yordan Alvarez has a 30m J.B. has a 22m Josh James has a 20m Cional Perez has a 17m Corbin Martin has a 15m Framber Valdez has a 10m Seth Bear has a 10m Myles Straw has a 8m The value is based off a bunch of different numbers but it's close to what you would think as a value to a players war and current contract . I don't know what number (m-million?) you are spouting here, but I am guessing it is something to the effect of speculative value of a minor leaguer. IMO- About as useful of a stat as number of rbis after scratching nuts. |
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Post by bearbryant on Nov 14, 2018 14:18:11 GMT -6
Kyle Tucker has a 55m Forrest Whitley has a 54m Yordan Alvarez has a 30m J.B. has a 22m Josh James has a 20m Cional Perez has a 17m Corbin Martin has a 15m Framber Valdez has a 10m Seth Bear has a 10m Myles Straw has a 8m The value is based off a bunch of different numbers but it's close to what you would think as a value to a players war and current contract . So if Nick Castellanos cost let say because of arbitration 8m for 2019 he bats in the .300 range and a WAR of 2.9 We send Jake Marsanik 3m contract bats .220ish with a War of 1.7 plus Cional Perez It should get a deal done. And it would be relatively cheaper the Nelson Cruz. Although he wouldnt put the 40hr spot up he would be in the department of 100 rbis and 300 avg . Would that be worth it? |
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 14, 2018 14:29:25 GMT -6
I think he would’ve accepted it. I’m trying to figure out who the front office wants and what the plan is moving forward. So far, they’ve just been losing players and personnel. Given the dubbing of Tucker as the de facto LF, Brantley only would make sense if they either traded Reddick or made Brantley the DH. |
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Nov 14, 2018 14:38:03 GMT -6
Kyle Tucker has a 55m Forrest Whitley has a 54m Yordan Alvarez has a 30m J.B. has a 22m Josh James has a 20m Cional Perez has a 17m Corbin Martin has a 15m Framber Valdez has a 10m Seth Bear has a 10m Myles Straw has a 8m The value is based off a bunch of different numbers but it's close to what you would think as a value to a players war and current contract . So if Nick Castellanos cost let say because of arbitration 8m for 2019 he bats in the .300 range and a WAR of 2.9 We send Jake Marsanik 3m contract bats .220ish with a War of 1.7 plus Cional Perez It should get a deal done. And it would be relatively cheaper the Nelson Cruz. Although he wouldnt put the 40hr spot up he would be in the department of 100 rbis and 300 avg . Would that be worth it? I'll trade you mine for your Jake Marsanik one. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 15:22:17 GMT -6
In no way is a utility player worth more than a 3.xx ERA left handed pitcher. That is true most of the time, but, in this case Marwin is more valuable to the Astros than the Keuchel we have seen since 2015. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 15:32:16 GMT -6
I totally disagree. I would not sign either for four years, and, if I have to choose between them, I take Marwin hands down. We can make up for the loss of a pitcher who consistently gets us behind in half of the games he starts. Wait...so a roleplayer with barely over league-average career numbers is worth more than a starting pitcher who was an all-star last year and pitched 200+ innings with above-average numbers this year? Come on, bro...I know you don't care for Kuechel but that's crazy talk. This "role player" saved our ass when Correa and Altuve were injured. I have never cared for pitchers like Keuchel who have to rely on pinpoint control and plate umpires who give him pitches below the knees or off the corners. When he doesn't have either, he gets shelled. And I certainly wouldn't pay one of these pitchers the ridiculous sum of money Boras wants for Keuchel. If he'd sign a two-year deal for $30 million, I'd keep him. Otherwise let him go complain in some other clubhouse when the GM doesn't make a move he thinks should be made or be wearing another uniform when lets his ass be photographed for a magazine. He can get a new team down 4-0 before they ever come to bat. I'd pay Marwin more than Keuchel and not think twice about it. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 15:33:05 GMT -6
Who the hell is Jake Marsanik?  ?? |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 15:39:38 GMT -6
Wait...so a roleplayer with barely over league-average career numbers is worth more than a starting pitcher who was an all-star last year and pitched 200+ innings with above-average numbers this year? Come on, bro...I know you don't care for Kuechel but that's crazy talk. This "role player" saved our ass when Correa and Altuve were injured. I have never cared for pitchers like Keuchel who have to rely on pinpoint control and plate umpires who give him pitches below the knees or off the corners. When he doesn't have either, he gets shelled. And I certainly wouldn't pay one of these pitchers the ridiculous sum of money Boras wants for Keuchel. If he'd sign a two-year deal for $30 million, I'd keep him. Otherwise let him go complain in some other clubhouse when the GM doesn't make a move he thinks should be made or be wearing another uniform when lets his ass be photographed for a magazine. He can get a new team down 4-0 before they ever come to bat. I'd pay Marwin more than Keuchel and not think twice about it. Yeah, pitchers like Greg Maddux can be awful. Control is overrated. As for "saving our asses when Correa and Altuve were injured"...Marwin had a decent season, but let's not pretend that we couldn't have gotten by without him. Bregman/Gurriel SS/3B combo worked perfectly fine, and Kemp could/should have played 2B for Altuve anyways. Now I'm not meaning to downplay Marwin's contributions, utility players like him certainly have value and in a perfect world where money wasn't an issue we would keep him. But, the guy had one amazing year in 2017 (mostly due to a good amount of luck if you really delve into the metrics) and then has been an average hitter with questionable hustle the rest of his career. An average hitter with versatility has value...but not more value than a legit healthy 2-3 starting pitcher with a couple of prime years left and a fairly robust resume. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 15:42:46 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it?
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 15:51:57 GMT -6
Bour placed on waivers....
.260/.344/.466 .811 OPS (123 OPS+) career line with excellent numbers against righties. Had a down year last year (still a 110 OPS+), but had a .902 OPS with 25 HRs in only 108 Games in 2017.
Could be a nice fit for DH for relatively cheap.
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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Nov 14, 2018 15:54:19 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it? Yes, just to spite Sherwin. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 16:09:23 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it? I'd have to seriously consider doing it. I just hope it doesn't come down to that. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 16:17:35 GMT -6
This "role player" saved our ass when Correa and Altuve were injured. I have never cared for pitchers like Keuchel who have to rely on pinpoint control and plate umpires who give him pitches below the knees or off the corners. When he doesn't have either, he gets shelled. And I certainly wouldn't pay one of these pitchers the ridiculous sum of money Boras wants for Keuchel. If he'd sign a two-year deal for $30 million, I'd keep him. Otherwise let him go complain in some other clubhouse when the GM doesn't make a move he thinks should be made or be wearing another uniform when lets his ass be photographed for a magazine. He can get a new team down 4-0 before they ever come to bat. I'd pay Marwin more than Keuchel and not think twice about it. Yeah, pitchers like Greg Maddux can be awful. Control is overrated. As for "saving our asses when Correa and Altuve were injured"...Marwin had a decent season, but let's not pretend that we couldn't have gotten by without him. Bregman/Gurriel SS/3B combo worked perfectly fine, and Kemp could/should have played 2B for Altuve anyways. Now I'm not meaning to downplay Marwin's contributions, utility players like him certainly have value and in a perfect world where money wasn't an issue we would keep him. But, the guy had one amazing year in 2017 (mostly due to a good amount of luck if you really delve into the metrics) and then has been an average hitter with questionable hustle the rest of his career. An average hitter with versatility has value...but not more value than a legit healthy 2-3 starting pitcher with a couple of prime years left and a fairly robust resume. Are you seriously trying to compare Keuchel to Greg Maddux??? Maddux won 4 Cy Youngs and 355 games. Calling Marwin a utility player when he was in the lineup every day is also inaccurate. A utility player comes off the bench from time to time to rest a starter. Marwin played somewhere every day. His hustle was very questionable prior to the All-Star break, but,that stopped after the break. If Marwin's numbers in 2017 were "luck", then, if you look at Keuchel's numbers other than 2015, you would have to say his Cy Young year was luck, too. He hasn't come close to putting up those humbers the last three years. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 14, 2018 16:19:47 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it? Nope. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 14, 2018 16:20:45 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it? Yes, just to spite Sherwin. Well, then I hope Jake gets nothing but RISP at-bats. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 16:23:02 GMT -6
So my video game moves.
Trade for Salvador Perez (You lose Stassi or Stubbs in the deal, plus probably Fisher and maybe Alvarez among others. GG-AS-SS catchers ain't cheap.)
Sign Duda (1-year $2 million) *IF* Cruz isn't reasonable or we need the money to sign Springer to an extension.
Sign Carlos Gonzalez (1-year $5 million)
Sign Morton (2-year $25 million)
2019 25-Man Roster:
C-Perez
1B/3B-Gurriel
2B-Altuve
SS-Correa
3B/SS-Bregman
LF-Tucker
CF-Springer
RF-Reddick
DH-Duda (for RHed pitchers) or White (for LHed pitchers) - Look at their splits if you think this is dumb.
Bench:
C-Stubbs or Stassi
DH/1B-White/Duda
OF-Marisnick
OF/2B-Kemp
OF-Gonzalez
SP-Verlander
SP-Cole
SP-Morton
SP-McHugh
SP-Whitley
CL-Osuna
SU-Rondon
SU-Pressly
RP-Harris
RP-Devenski
RP-Smith
Perez, James, Valdez, and Straw all ready to come up with an injury (or if we have to trade somebody from the 25-man). Gonzalez is a cheap backup plan if Tucker doesn't work out. Morton gives us some proven depth in the rotation, especially for 2020 with Cole and Verlander being question marks. Salvador Perez is a perfect fit for what we need at C and is fairly reasonably priced for the next three years. We probably don't improve at DH as much as we might like, but we certainly do at C and LF even if Tucker doesn't work out. Duda is a gamble but a very cheap one and we can always cut our losses and upgrade at DH during the year if we need to, or run a little bit of a rotating DH spot.
This gets us reasonable-to-good backups at every starting position and no major holes in the rotation or bullpen except for the lack of a lefty reliever (which I don't care that much about). Of course all of this is contingent on who we might have to give up (or not give up) in a trade. I'm also not against seeing how Alvarez could do if he comes out raking in ST and we didn't have to trade him.
edit: Kemp could always be sent down if we needed to add to the bullpen.
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 16:26:08 GMT -6
Yeah, pitchers like Greg Maddux can be awful. Control is overrated. As for "saving our asses when Correa and Altuve were injured"...Marwin had a decent season, but let's not pretend that we couldn't have gotten by without him. Bregman/Gurriel SS/3B combo worked perfectly fine, and Kemp could/should have played 2B for Altuve anyways. Now I'm not meaning to downplay Marwin's contributions, utility players like him certainly have value and in a perfect world where money wasn't an issue we would keep him. But, the guy had one amazing year in 2017 (mostly due to a good amount of luck if you really delve into the metrics) and then has been an average hitter with questionable hustle the rest of his career. An average hitter with versatility has value...but not more value than a legit healthy 2-3 starting pitcher with a couple of prime years left and a fairly robust resume. Are you seriously trying to compare Keuchel to Greg Maddux??? Maddux won 4 Cy Youngs and 355 games. Calling Marwin a utility player when he was in the lineup every day is also inaccurate. A utility player comes off the bench from time to time to rest a starter. Marwin played somewhere every day. His hustle was very questionable prior to the All-Star break, but,that stopped after the break. If Marwin's numbers in 2017 were "luck", then, if you look at Keuchel's numbers other than 2015, you would have to say his Cy Young year was luck, too. He hasn't come close to putting up those humbers the last three years. I'm making a point about "control-based" pitchers. And no, since 2015 Keuchel has been an all-star. How many times was Marwin an AS? In any case this is another argument that will never go anywhere. I'd be amazed if you weren't the only person in the baseball world that thinks Marwin is worth more than Keuchel. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 16:55:09 GMT -6
Are you seriously trying to compare Keuchel to Greg Maddux??? Maddux won 4 Cy Youngs and 355 games. Calling Marwin a utility player when he was in the lineup every day is also inaccurate. A utility player comes off the bench from time to time to rest a starter. Marwin played somewhere every day. His hustle was very questionable prior to the All-Star break, but,that stopped after the break. If Marwin's numbers in 2017 were "luck", then, if you look at Keuchel's numbers other than 2015, you would have to say his Cy Young year was luck, too. He hasn't come close to putting up those humbers the last three years. I'm making a point about "control-based" pitchers. And no, since 2015 Keuchel has been an all-star. How many times was Marwin an AS? In any case this is another argument that will never go anywhere. I'd be amazed if you weren't the only person in the baseball world that thinks Marwin is worth more than Keuchel. it would not bother me one bit if I'm the only one who thinks Marwin is worth more than Keuchel......I stand by it 100%. You have Keuchel vastly over-rated. Best I recall, the year Keuchel was an All-Star he went downhill the rest of the season. He probably leads the majors in most time spent on the DL to "rest". |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 17:01:47 GMT -6
I'm making a point about "control-based" pitchers. And no, since 2015 Keuchel has been an all-star. How many times was Marwin an AS? In any case this is another argument that will never go anywhere. I'd be amazed if you weren't the only person in the baseball world that thinks Marwin is worth more than Keuchel. it would not bother me one bit if I'm the only one who thinks Marwin is worth more than Keuchel......I stand by it 100%. You have Keuchel vastly over-rated. Best I recall, the year Keuchel was an All-Star he went downhill the rest of the season. He probably leads the majors in most time spent on the DL to "rest". He's averaged 28 starts and 173 IP a season since 2015. I'm not going to do the research, but I would bet that's among the top 10-15% in MLB for innings pitched during that time frame. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 17:19:57 GMT -6
i still laugh when I hear people pay tribute to pitchers who work 200 innings per season. I remember when we had tough pitchers who pitched 300 innings or more per season without spending a lot of time on the DL. Keuchel's 173 innings is nothing to brag about. I haven't checked but, I doubt if most of those 28 starts were dominant. If you think going 12-11 with an ERA barely less than 4.00 means he deserves a big contract, you are way off base.
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