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Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Nov 14, 2018 17:35:29 GMT -6
Snell wins the CYA
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 17:41:16 GMT -6
I thought he'd win it.........no disrespect to Verlander, but, Snell deserved it. |
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Post by bearbryant on Nov 14, 2018 17:45:57 GMT -6
I'm just putting this out there. Say it looks too expensive to bring in somebody like Cruz to DH and/or we can't find a trade partner for a C. If the interest in Gattis is limited and you can bring him back on a 1-year deal for say $2 million....do you do it? |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 17:53:01 GMT -6
i still laugh when I hear people pay tribute to pitchers who work 200 innings per season. I remember when we had tough pitchers who pitched 300 innings or more per season without spending a lot of time on the DL. Keuchel's 173 innings is nothing to brag about. I haven't checked but, I doubt if most of those 28 starts were dominant. If you think going 12-11 with an ERA barely less than 4.00 means he deserves a big contract, you are way off base. What happened 50 years ago has nothing to do with the last three year.... Value now is value now. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 17:53:55 GMT -6
Snell couldn't even average 6 innings per start....
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Post by bearbryant on Nov 14, 2018 18:04:37 GMT -6
i still laugh when I hear people pay tribute to pitchers who work 200 innings per season. I remember when we had tough pitchers who pitched 300 innings or more per season without spending a lot of time on the DL. Keuchel's 173 innings is nothing to brag about. I haven't checked but, I doubt if most of those 28 starts were dominant. If you think going 12-11 with an ERA barely less than 4.00 means he deserves a big contract, you are way off base. What happened 50 years ago has nothing to do with the last three year.... Value now is value now. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 14, 2018 18:26:18 GMT -6
What happened 50 years ago has nothing to do with the last three year.... Value now is value now. Well, I guess they're technically free agents.... I'm not sure how much value they still have though. |
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talshill
Arbitration Eligible
Vini, vici, pavori.
Posts: 2,004
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Post by talshill on Nov 14, 2018 22:26:33 GMT -6
yeah but Warren Spahn and Bob Feller Well, I guess they're technically free agents.... I'm not sure how much value they still have though. I'm willing to bet that I would be a more valuable addition as a FA than either of those guys at this point... |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 22:56:56 GMT -6
i still laugh when I hear people pay tribute to pitchers who work 200 innings per season. I remember when we had tough pitchers who pitched 300 innings or more per season without spending a lot of time on the DL. Keuchel's 173 innings is nothing to brag about. I haven't checked but, I doubt if most of those 28 starts were dominant. If you think going 12-11 with an ERA barely less than 4.00 means he deserves a big contract, you are way off base. What happened 50 years ago has nothing to do with the last three year.... Value now is value now. you missed the point .....Today's pitchers are wimps, but, since today's teams overpay them, they baby them to protect their investments. I remember how people were in awe when the Astros signed Nolan Ryan as a free agent in 1980 and pazid him around $1 million per season. He normally pitched around 300 innings or more per season and didn't go to the DL to rest or whine about soreness all the time. Pitchers with Keuchel's stats would have been the last man in the rotation. Most of those teams had four man rotations and didn't start wanting to come out of games by the fifth or sixth inning. I realize that value today is not the same as back in those days. But, that doesn't make them as good as those years ago. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 23:00:42 GMT -6
Snell couldn't even average 6 innings per start.... Snell's stats say he deserved it. Being the big stat man that you are, you should know that. |
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Post by nathangarza29 on Nov 14, 2018 23:07:14 GMT -6
I'm over the Cy Young I think there should be a minimum innings pitched per game innings.
Sorry not taking anything away from Snell js.
Anyways I just read an article that said 5m for McCann... and the Angel's or Braves are gonna be his destination
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 14, 2018 23:13:24 GMT -6
I'm over the Cy Young I think there should be a minimum innings pitched per game innings. Sorry not taking anything away from Snell js. Anyways I just read an article that said 5m for McCann... and the Angel's or Braves are gonna be his destination Atlanta is his home so I'd bet on the Braves if they want him. |
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Post by batman007 on Nov 15, 2018 0:09:17 GMT -6
Pretty sure McCann said he wanted to go back to Atlanta to retire
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 15, 2018 0:19:56 GMT -6
Pretty sure McCann said he wanted to go back to Atlanta to retire That is what I think he will do. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 8:48:25 GMT -6
Well, I guess they're technically free agents.... I'm not sure how much value they still have though. I'm willing to bet that I would be a more valuable addition as a FA than either of those guys at this point... Hey, sports medicine is pretty advanced now... |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 8:49:19 GMT -6
What happened 50 years ago has nothing to do with the last three year.... Value now is value now. you missed the point .....Today's pitchers are wimps, but, since today's teams overpay them, they baby them to protect their investments. I remember how people were in awe when the Astros signed Nolan Ryan as a free agent in 1980 and pazid him around $1 million per season. He normally pitched around 300 innings or more per season and didn't go to the DL to rest or whine about soreness all the time. Pitchers with Keuchel's stats would have been the last man in the rotation. Most of those teams had four man rotations and didn't start wanting to come out of games by the fifth or sixth inning. I realize that value today is not the same as back in those days. But, that doesn't make them as good as those years ago. You're the one that started comparing Keuchel to years ago.... Which has nothing to do with anything now regarding pitcher value. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 8:52:02 GMT -6
Snell couldn't even average 6 innings per start.... Snell's stats say he deserved it. Being the big stat man that you are, you should know that. Some stats said yes, some said no. Verlander was better than him in a number of other different areas. Better WHIP, more Strikeouts, way more IP, etc. I don't think Snell is undeserving, but I think a CY winner should have more innings pitched than that unless they were some type of ridiculously good reliever like Eckersley in 1992 (who should have lost to Clemens). |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 15, 2018 9:27:14 GMT -6
you missed the point .....Today's pitchers are wimps, but, since today's teams overpay them, they baby them to protect their investments. I remember how people were in awe when the Astros signed Nolan Ryan as a free agent in 1980 and pazid him around $1 million per season. He normally pitched around 300 innings or more per season and didn't go to the DL to rest or whine about soreness all the time. Pitchers with Keuchel's stats would have been the last man in the rotation. Most of those teams had four man rotations and didn't start wanting to come out of games by the fifth or sixth inning. I realize that value today is not the same as back in those days. But, that doesn't make them as good as those years ago. You're the one that started comparing Keuchel to years ago.... Which has nothing to do with anything now regarding pitcher value. I agreel. It was meant to show how pampered and babied today's pitchers are that is the result of now having a salary cap like other pro sports and tying the players' contracts to production. Neither Keuchel nor any other pitcher who has his stats over the last three years should be paid when he and Boras will be asking. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 15, 2018 9:28:07 GMT -6
Snell's stats say he deserved it. Being the big stat man that you are, you should know that. Some stats said yes, some said no. Verlander was better than him in a number of other different areas. Better WHIP, more Strikeouts, way more IP, etc. I don't think Snell is undeserving, but I think a CY winner should have more innings pitched than that unless they were some type of ridiculously good reliever like Eckersley in 1992 (who should have lost to Clemens). Either Snell or Verlander would have been a good choice. |
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 15, 2018 9:56:59 GMT -6
Verlander was deserving, but he certainly wasn’t robbed by any stretch. Snell had consistently solid numbers all season. I do think, however, that if Verlander had about 10 more K’s, he would’ve taken it.
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 10:41:52 GMT -6
If you take out that one start against Seattle in August where he didn't make it past two innings and gave up 6 ER, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Without that start, he is looking at a 2.29 ERA with 212 IP. Or, if he pitches a typical game for him (say 7 IP and 2 ER) he would have had a 2.30 ERA with 219 IP.
I think either of those projections pushes him over the edge in the voting considering how close it ended up being.
edit: Not to mention that would have made him either 16-8 or 17-8 as well.
17-8 219 IP 2.30 ERA 290 SO = CY
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 15, 2018 11:40:35 GMT -6
If you take out that one start against Seattle in August where he didn't make it past two innings and gave up 6 ER, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Without that start, he is looking at a 2.29 ERA with 212 IP. Or, if he pitches a typical game for him (say 7 IP and 2 ER) he would have had a 2.30 ERA with 219 IP. I think either of those projections pushes him over the edge in the voting considering how close it ended up being. edit: Not to mention that would have made him either 16-8 or 17-8 as well. 17-8 219 IP 2.30 ERA 290 SO = CY The offense totally robbed him of the 20-win mark. That would’ve garnered him the hardware easily. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 11:49:45 GMT -6
Verlander’s sad state of CY voting:
Won in 2011, deservedly so. His only one.
Finished 2nd to David Price in 2012, despite having (again) more IP, more SO, the best ERA+ (field-adjusted ERA), and having the highest WAR for pitchers. Price pitched for Tampa Bay.
Finished 2nd to Blake Snell in 2018, despite having, more IP, more SO, the better WAR, and the best WHIP. Snell pitched for Tampa Bay.
Finished 2nd to David Porcello in 2016, despite having more IP and a better ERA, leading the league in SO and WHIP, and having the highest WAR for pitchers. (He also had 6 more 1st place votes than Porcello.) The two voters from Tampa Bay didn’t even include Verlander on their ballots.
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Post by unionstation82 on Nov 15, 2018 11:51:15 GMT -6
Verlander’s sad state of CY voting: Won in 2011, deservedly so. His only one. Finished 2nd to David Price in 2012, despite having (again) more IP, more SO, the best ERA+ (field-adjusted ERA), and having the highest WAR for pitchers. Price pitched for Tampa Bay. Finished 2nd to Blake Snell in 2018, despite having, more IP, more SO, the better WAR, and the best WHIP. Snell pitched for Tampa Bay. Finished 2nd to David Porcello in 2016, despite having more IP and a better ERA, leading the league in SO and WHIP, and having the highest WAR for pitchers. (He also had 6 more 1st place votes than Porcello.) The two voters from Tampa Bay didn’t even include Verlander on their ballots.The voting system is flawed. Look at Pedro losing to Pudge back in ‘99. |
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Post by thomasj13 on Nov 15, 2018 12:02:56 GMT -6
If you take out that one start against Seattle in August where he didn't make it past two innings and gave up 6 ER, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Without that start, he is looking at a 2.29 ERA with 212 IP. Or, if he pitches a typical game for him (say 7 IP and 2 ER) he would have had a 2.30 ERA with 219 IP. I think either of those projections pushes him over the edge in the voting considering how close it ended up being. edit: Not to mention that would have made him either 16-8 or 17-8 as well. 17-8 219 IP 2.30 ERA 290 SO = CY The offense totally robbed him of the 20-win mark. That would’ve garnered him the hardware easily. If he can somehow have the same state line as far as IP, ERA, Whip, SO in 2019 as he did in 2018, he will win the CY.....Year of the Tucker, Correa Rebound and Nelson Cruz hitting 35 bombs for the Stros... |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 12:14:40 GMT -6
Verlander’s sad state of CY voting: Won in 2011, deservedly so. His only one. Finished 2nd to David Price in 2012, despite having (again) more IP, more SO, the best ERA+ (field-adjusted ERA), and having the highest WAR for pitchers. Price pitched for Tampa Bay. Finished 2nd to Blake Snell in 2018, despite having, more IP, more SO, the better WAR, and the best WHIP. Snell pitched for Tampa Bay. Finished 2nd to David Porcello in 2016, despite having more IP and a better ERA, leading the league in SO and WHIP, and having the highest WAR for pitchers. (He also had 6 more 1st place votes than Porcello.) The two voters from Tampa Bay didn’t even include Verlander on their ballots.The voting system is flawed. Look at Pedro losing to Pudge back in ‘99. I don't think pitchers should ever win MVP. I don't see how anybody can be MVP when they only play 1 out of every 5 games. In 1999, either Alomar or Jeter should have won over Pudge though. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 15, 2018 12:19:33 GMT -6
If you take out that one start against Seattle in August where he didn't make it past two innings and gave up 6 ER, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Without that start, he is looking at a 2.29 ERA with 212 IP. Or, if he pitches a typical game for him (say 7 IP and 2 ER) he would have had a 2.30 ERA with 219 IP. I think either of those projections pushes him over the edge in the voting considering how close it ended up being. edit: Not to mention that would have made him either 16-8 or 17-8 as well. 17-8 219 IP 2.30 ERA 290 SO = CY Lack of run support kept Verlander from being a 20-game winner which would have gotten him the Cy Young. As it turned out, Snell got it and there is no reason to say he didn't earn it. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 12:59:50 GMT -6
If you take out that one start against Seattle in August where he didn't make it past two innings and gave up 6 ER, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Without that start, he is looking at a 2.29 ERA with 212 IP. Or, if he pitches a typical game for him (say 7 IP and 2 ER) he would have had a 2.30 ERA with 219 IP. I think either of those projections pushes him over the edge in the voting considering how close it ended up being. edit: Not to mention that would have made him either 16-8 or 17-8 as well. 17-8 219 IP 2.30 ERA 290 SO = CY Lack of run support kept Verlander from being a 20-game winner which would have gotten him the Cy Young. As it turned out, Snell got it and there is no reason to say he didn't earn it. The NL race proves that Wins hardly matter anymore for this type of voting. If anything, it was Snell's excellent ERA and OPS-against. |
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Post by blcoach8 on Nov 15, 2018 13:16:59 GMT -6
Lack of run support kept Verlander from being a 20-game winner which would have gotten him the Cy Young. As it turned out, Snell got it and there is no reason to say he didn't earn it. The NL race proves that Wins hardly matter anymore for this type of voting. If anything, it was Snell's excellent ERA and OPS-against. I think ERA should be the primary stat considered when voting for the Cy Young. Number of wins is over-rated. I think innings pitched should play a larger role than number of wins. I think ERA and win total won the award for Snell. Verlander had more innings pitched and was robbed of wins by lack of run support. What I have against number of wins playing a big role is due to a pitcher can have a terrible start but gets credit for a win because his team scored a lot of runs for him. Verlander had losses when the Astros were either shutout or scored only one run. He did his part of the job but the offense failed to produce. We missed having a big power hitter in the lineup and it showed which is why that need has to be addressed this off-season. |
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Post by Saint on Nov 15, 2018 13:27:47 GMT -6
ERA and ERA+ should be major factors, but workload should be a part of it. Snell only averaged like 5.8 innings per start, which wouldn't even qualify him for a "Quality Start" these days. So if he is rarely pitching late in games, he is not doing as much for his team.
Snell only reached 7 innings pitched seven times and never reached 8 complete. Verlander reached 7 innings pitched 11 eleven times including 3 times at 8 or more. Plus, he had three more starts. Despite those more innings, he allowed a lower rate of hitters reaching base (WHIP) and struck out far more.
And not that I put a ton of value on quality starts (6+ IP and 3 or less ER), but it is something...
Quality Starts
Verlander: 26
Snell: 19
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