|
|
Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 24, 2019 11:13:28 GMT -6
Yordan has 100% of the 1st place mock votes.
|
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 11:15:30 GMT -6
I saw that earlier. The voters suck. I think Bregman should win the MVP but those who don't place him at least #2 behind Trout are morons. I will never understand voting for a guy to be MVP whose team finishes 30 games out in it division. Trout is the best player in the league but he is NOT the MVP. The Angels sucked with him on the team just like they would have without him. All of these people who annoint Trout as the best of all-time haven't watched very closely....True,he puts up great individual stats.....But, he can't stay healthy and his team is terrible with or without him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 11:15:31 GMT -6
Trout winning the MVP wouldn't be an upset by any means but to say that Trout is far and away better than any player in the game this year is no accurate by any stretch.
Along the lines of the "valuable" debate, I brought up a while back that Trout in all his splendor is developing a perception of being injury prone. After playing full time '12 -'16 2017- 114 games 2018- 140 games 2019- 134 games The Angels brass better hope this is a 3 year anomaly. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 11:16:49 GMT -6
Trout winning the MVP wouldn't be an upset by any means but to say that Trout is far and away better than any player in the game this year is no accurate by any stretch.
Along the lines of the "valuable" debate, I brought up a while back that Trout in all his splendor is developing a perception of being injury prone. After playing full time '12 -'16 2017- 114 games 2018- 140 games 2019- 134 games The Angels brass better hope this is a 3 year anomaly. Thanks for providing more evidence that Trout should not win the MVP. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 11:19:39 GMT -6
Yordan has 100% of the 1st place mock votes. And Vlad Jr. not even in the top 5. I find that odd. |
|
|
|
Post by ɮօʀȶǟʐ on Sept 24, 2019 11:26:12 GMT -6
Yordan has 100% of the 1st place mock votes. And Vlad Jr. not even in the top 5. I find that odd. Yeah, me too. A few weeks ago we were all convinced he'd steal it from Yordan |
|
|
|
Post by unionstation82 on Sept 24, 2019 11:54:08 GMT -6
I don’t think Bregman will win the MVP, but there being one first place vote is an absolute joke.
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 13:15:52 GMT -6
That doesn't bode well for Bregman with only a week left. Yep, 36-1 at this point is unsurmountable. I have been saying for weeks that the baseball illuminati wasn't going to let the Astros get away with the hat trick. OTOH, cause for celebration for the CY and ROY. IMO- 100% and 90% chance at this point. Well, in most of the major categories there are some pretty significant differences between the two. A lot of Bregman's case revolves around the fact that he's been a little healthier and his team is better. If their teams were switched I don't believe anybody would be saying Trout wasn't the runaway MVP. But, Bregman has a week to do something impressive and narrow the gap some more. That WAR total is going to make a big difference. If he can inch a little closer he'll have a better chance. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 13:16:51 GMT -6
Trout winning the MVP wouldn't be an upset by any means but to say that Trout is far and away better than any player in the game this year is no accurate by any stretch.
Along the lines of the "valuable" debate, I brought up a while back that Trout in all his splendor is developing a perception of being injury prone. After playing full time '12 -'16 2017- 114 games 2018- 140 games 2019- 134 games The Angels brass better hope this is a 3 year anomaly. Yeah but even with those injuries he's a consensus top-3 player only averaging a 130 games or so. That's how valuable he is. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 13:34:55 GMT -6
Along the lines of the "valuable" debate, I brought up a while back that Trout in all his splendor is developing a perception of being injury prone. After playing full time '12 -'16 2017- 114 games 2018- 140 games 2019- 134 games The Angels brass better hope this is a 3 year anomaly. Yeah but even with those injuries he's a consensus top-3 player only averaging a 130 games or so. That's how valuable he is. Can you imagine if he played in all 162 games a year. The Angels would win like 82 games or something. Wow! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 13:36:10 GMT -6
That doesn't bode well for Bregman with only a week left. Yep, 36-1 at this point is unsurmountable. I have been saying for weeks that the baseball illuminati wasn't going to let the Astros get away with the hat trick. OTOH, cause for celebration for the CY and ROY. IMO- 100% and 90% chance at this point. I agree with this. It will be either Bregman for MVP or Yordan for ROY and right now it appears Yordan has the ROY trophy. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 13:41:49 GMT -6
Yeah but even with those injuries he's a consensus top-3 player only averaging a 130 games or so. That's how valuable he is. Can you imagine if he played in all 162 games a year. The Angels would win like 82 games or something. Wow! True and funny, but not his fault. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 13:53:16 GMT -6
And that's what has kept him from winning more MVPs. An MVP leads his team to a title.......the Angels could have finished 30 games behind the Astros without Trout. Trout puts up great individual numbers but is apparently satisfied with playing for a loser. I admire his loyalty but I like players who put an importance on winning. Bregman is putting up outstanding numbers and helping lead the Astros to a potential WS title....... Trout has led his team nowhere.How much do you expect one man to be able to do? I'm not making a case for Trout. I'd love to see Bregman win it. But this is the weakest argument against Trout I've ever read. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 13:53:17 GMT -6
My thoughts are this. The MVP award was not meant to be won by the same player every year. Actually, in the early days it was made where a player could only win it once in his lifetime.
With that said, the MVP award should be a mixture of skill, luck and team success. The best player on the best team should be the most considered. I don't believe that a player on a losing team (outside of extraordinary circumstances like hitting 70 HRs or 160 RBIs) should be considered for the majority of 1st place votes. Winning games may not be in their power but they can effect the game enough to be a winning team. And the owners have the ability to make the team better and if they don't or can't then that also falls on their players.
Trout could win it every year but how would that make the game better? You give it to Trout when his team has one of the best records in baseball, or even if his team actually makes it to the playoffs. But you don't hand him the award when other players work harder that year, play more games, step into other positions and have more pressure on their side to perform.
In pitchers we've all seen how a player can strike out anyone in a blowout but clam up when the game is on the line. Same goes for trying to win a division or a series. When a player doesn't have pressure to win in September then they can be selfish and play just for themselves if they wanted to. It's hard to get numbers when you have an entire team to answer for.
-Bregman for MVP
|
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 14:07:41 GMT -6
An MVP leads his team to a title.......the Angels could have finished 30 games behind the Astros without Trout. Trout puts up great individual numbers but is apparently satisfied with playing for a loser. I admire his loyalty but I like players who put an importance on winning. Bregman is putting up outstanding numbers and helping lead the Astros to a potential WS title....... Trout has led his team nowhere.How much do you expect one man to be able to do? I'm not making a case for Trout. I'd love to see Bregman win it. But this is the weakest argument against Trout I've ever read. Oh, I know I am in the minority on this. I define a MVP as a player who has a huge impact on where his team finishes in the standings and his team preferably wins the division and/or the pennant,. I also realize it isn't Trout's fault that the Angels suck. My point is t hat Trout's performance has had absolutely nothing to do with where the Angels finish in the standings. Bregman has been the most productive player on the division winner who is also favored by many to win the WS. Bregman's numbers have had an impact on the Astros winning the division. The Angels suck with or without Trout. I have never thought stats should be all that is considered when determining the MVP. Bregman stays in the lineup and played superior defense at third base and shortstop while Correa was taking one of his in-season vacations. Trout seems to have as many foot problems as Correa has with his back. Nobody will convince me that Trout should win the MVP over Bregman in spite of Trout's WAR or any other I also know the media will not allow the Astros to win the honors that are coming to them. Verlander or Cole.........probably Verlander.....will win the the Cy Young. Yordan will win Rookie of the Year. No way in hell does the media allow Bregman to win the MVP. They can make a case for denying Bregman but not allowing the Astros to win the other two awards would be obvious media bias. If justice was served,. we would sweep all three. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 14:09:42 GMT -6
My thoughts are this. The MVP award was not meant to be won by the same player every year. Actually, in the early days it was made where a player could only win it once in his lifetime. With that said, the MVP award should be a mixture of skill, luck and team success. The best player on the best team should be the most considered. I don't believe that a player on a losing team (outside of extraordinary circumstances like hitting 70 HRs or 160 RBIs) should be considered for the majority of 1st place votes. Winning games may not be in their power but they can effect the game enough to be a winning team. And the owners have the ability to make the team better and if they don't or can't then that also falls on their players. Trout could win it every year but how would that make the game better? You give it to Trout when his team has one of the best records in baseball, or even if his team actually makes it to the playoffs. But you don't hand him the award when other players work harder that year, play more games, step into other positions and have more pressure on their side to perform. In pitchers we've all seen how a player can strike out anyone in a blowout but clam up when the game is on the line. Same goes for trying to win a division or a series. When a player doesn't have pressure to win in September then they can be selfish and play just for themselves if they wanted to. It's hard to get numbers when you have an entire team to answer for. -Bregman for MVP You did a better job of saying some of what I am trying to say. Looking at a guys' stats and using nothing else to decide the MVP is ridiculous. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 14:20:45 GMT -6
My thoughts are this. The MVP award was not meant to be won by the same player every year. Actually, in the early days it was made where a player could only win it once in his lifetime. With that said, the MVP award should be a mixture of skill, luck and team success. The best player on the best team should be the most considered. I don't believe that a player on a losing team (outside of extraordinary circumstances like hitting 70 HRs or 160 RBIs) should be considered for the majority of 1st place votes. Winning games may not be in their power but they can effect the game enough to be a winning team. And the owners have the ability to make the team better and if they don't or can't then that also falls on their players. Trout could win it every year but how would that make the game better? You give it to Trout when his team has one of the best records in baseball, or even if his team actually makes it to the playoffs. But you don't hand him the award when other players work harder that year, play more games, step into other positions and have more pressure on their side to perform. In pitchers we've all seen how a player can strike out anyone in a blowout but clam up when the game is on the line. Same goes for trying to win a division or a series. When a player doesn't have pressure to win in September then they can be selfish and play just for themselves if they wanted to. It's hard to get numbers when you have an entire team to answer for. -Bregman for MVP Except there are plenty of things that have changed over time. What the MVP was 50+ years ago is irrelevant. "Trout could win it every year but how would that make the game better?"How does it make it worse? Why shouldn't you recognize the best most valuable player even if it is the same player every year? "You give it to Trout when his team has one of the best records in baseball, or even if his team actually makes it to the playoffs. But you don't hand him the award when other players work harder that year, play more games, step into other positions and have more pressure on their side to perform."Absolutely, those are points in Bregman's favor. But it's not all that matters. It all comes down to the interpretation of the award, and nobody can agree on that completely. Is it the best player, is it the most valuable to their individual team, is it the most valuable player to the league, do intangibles matter, etc. etc. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 14:21:59 GMT -6
My thoughts are this. The MVP award was not meant to be won by the same player every year. Actually, in the early days it was made where a player could only win it once in his lifetime. With that said, the MVP award should be a mixture of skill, luck and team success. The best player on the best team should be the most considered. I don't believe that a player on a losing team (outside of extraordinary circumstances like hitting 70 HRs or 160 RBIs) should be considered for the majority of 1st place votes. Winning games may not be in their power but they can effect the game enough to be a winning team. And the owners have the ability to make the team better and if they don't or can't then that also falls on their players. Trout could win it every year but how would that make the game better? You give it to Trout when his team has one of the best records in baseball, or even if his team actually makes it to the playoffs. But you don't hand him the award when other players work harder that year, play more games, step into other positions and have more pressure on their side to perform. In pitchers we've all seen how a player can strike out anyone in a blowout but clam up when the game is on the line. Same goes for trying to win a division or a series. When a player doesn't have pressure to win in September then they can be selfish and play just for themselves if they wanted to. It's hard to get numbers when you have an entire team to answer for. -Bregman for MVP You did a better job of saying some of what I am trying to say. Looking at a guys' stats and using nothing else to decide the MVP is ridiculous. I don't think anybody here has said to use only stats. There are other components. But if you're trying to be completely unbiased, stats are the only way. That's why a lot of people use them for their argument. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 14:31:44 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the league will never DEFINE the MVP because they want to keep it up for debate. If they hand it out to a player on a 50 win team who hit 65 HRs and batter .400 then they can. If down the road they give it to a player who had 35 HRs, 99 RBIs but 150 walks and a team record of 115 wins then they can do that as well. The league loves debate and defining the award will only create a static version where everyone would know by the seasons end who will win it. I by no means am saying that Trout will not or definitely SHOULD NOT win it, only that my debate this year is for Bregman who is having a similar season on a far better team. If Bregman doesn't win it this year and suddenly the Angels wise us and create a team around Trout where they win the division every year then nobody may even stand a chance to win it.
Also, if Bregman won it this year, nobody will be knocking on the commissioner's door claiming rigged. He had a great year and he deserves to be rewarded. I just can't give someone the award based upon a hypothetical (If Trout had better players the Angels would be in the playoffs therefore he should win it, If Trout wasn't injured he could hit 55 HRs and 150 RBIs). I see Bregman and what he actually accomplished (and battled back from around the All-Star break) and say he was the reason the Astros were able to win so many games because he kept the team together when Altuve, Springer and Correa were out.
|
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 14:33:43 GMT -6
You did a better job of saying some of what I am trying to say. Looking at a guys' stats and using nothing else to decide the MVP is ridiculous. I don't think anybody here has said to use only stats. There are other components. But if you're trying to be completely unbiased, stats are the only way. That's why a lot of people use them for their argument. I understand that many will base their vote on stats. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You have to consider other aspects.......defense, games played, team finish. If we eliminate number of games played, an argument could be made that Alvarez is the MVP based on what he has done in 82 games. His 27 home runs, 77 runs batted in, and 1.103 OPS projected over 162 games would be much better than Trout. Bregman, and anyone else. As it is, if his RR stats could be included he would finish with 50 home runs and 150 runs batted in. I am not saying Yordan should be in the conversation but if number of games played are ignored, he should be given lots of consideration. I wish we knew what our record would be if AJ got Yordan at the beginning of the season as he wanted instead of being stuck with the useless Tyler White. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 14:38:41 GMT -6
I don't think anybody here has said to use only stats. There are other components. But if you're trying to be completely unbiased, stats are the only way. That's why a lot of people use them for their argument. I understand that many will base their vote on stats. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You have to consider other aspects.......defense, games played, team finish. If we eliminate number of games played, an argument could be made that Alvarez is the MVP based on what he has done in 82 games. His 27 home runs, 77 runs batted in, and 1.103 OPS projected over 162 games would be much better than Trout. Bregman, and anyone else. As it is, if his RR stats could be included he would finish with 50 home runs and 150 runs batted in. I am not saying Yordan should be in the conversation but if number of games played are ignored, he should be given lots of consideration. I wish we knew what our record would be if AJ got Yordan at the beginning of the season as he wanted instead of being stuck with the useless Tyler White. I'm not sure the point you're making. Should games played matter or not matter? And again, nobody is saying those other aspects don't matter, but the individual's performance should be the primary factor when voting for an individual's award. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 14:39:32 GMT -6
And for the record, I think Bregman is pretty well closing the gap between the two if he keeps finishing strong, but it certainly wouldn't be inappropriate or an upset if Trout won.
|
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 15:12:50 GMT -6
I understand that many will base their vote on stats. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. You have to consider other aspects.......defense, games played, team finish. If we eliminate number of games played, an argument could be made that Alvarez is the MVP based on what he has done in 82 games. His 27 home runs, 77 runs batted in, and 1.103 OPS projected over 162 games would be much better than Trout. Bregman, and anyone else. As it is, if his RR stats could be included he would finish with 50 home runs and 150 runs batted in. I am not saying Yordan should be in the conversation but if number of games played are ignored, he should be given lots of consideration. I wish we knew what our record would be if AJ got Yordan at the beginning of the season as he wanted instead of being stuck with the useless Tyler White. I'm not sure the point you're making. Should games played matter or not matter? And again, nobody is saying those other aspects don't matter, but the individual's performance should be the primary factor when voting for an individual's award. Number of games played should definitely be a factor.........Trout never plays a full season. What the player's performance means to the overall success of his team should also be considered. Bregman wins in that area, too. I wonder if you keep missing my point because it contradicts yours.  |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 15:20:23 GMT -6
And for the record, I think Bregman is pretty well closing the gap between the two if he keeps finishing strong, but it certainly wouldn't be inappropriate or an upset if Trout won. I think he has closed any gap that was there. Look at his production and what it has meant to the team's success. That is what makes an MVP. I also wonder how many votes Trout will get based solely on his name and the fact that he plays in a large media market. |
|
|
|
Post by thomasj13 on Sept 24, 2019 15:24:04 GMT -6
I saw that earlier. The voters suck. I think Bregman should win the MVP but those who don't place him at least #2 behind Trout are morons. I will never understand voting for a guy to be MVP whose team finishes 30 games out in it division. Trout is the best player in the league but he is NOT the MVP. The Angels sucked with him on the team just like they would have without him. All of these people who annoint Trout as the best of all-time haven't watched very closely....True,he puts up great individual stats.....But, he can't stay healthy and his team is terrible with or without him. So if Bregman would have played for Angels instead of Trout...and if Bregman had the same 2019.....the Angels would still be sucking ... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 16:03:45 GMT -6
How much do you expect one man to be able to do? I'm not making a case for Trout. I'd love to see Bregman win it. But this is the weakest argument against Trout I've ever read. Oh, I know I am in the minority on this. I define a MVP as a player who has a huge impact on where his team finishes in the standings and his team preferably wins the division and/or the pennant,. I also realize it isn't Trout's fault that the Angels suck. My point is t hat Trout's performance has had absolutely nothing to do with where the Angels finish in the standings. Bregman has been the most productive player on the division winner who is also favored by many to win the WS. Bregman's numbers have had an impact on the Astros winning the division. The Angels suck with or without Trout. I have never thought stats should be all that is considered when determining the MVP. Bregman stays in the lineup and played superior defense at third base and shortstop while Correa was taking one of his in-season vacations. Trout seems to have as many foot problems as Correa has with his back. Nobody will convince me that Trout should win the MVP over Bregman in spite of Trout's WAR or any other I also know the media will not allow the Astros to win the honors that are coming to them. Verlander or Cole.........probably Verlander.....will win the the Cy Young. Yordan will win Rookie of the Year. No way in hell does the media allow Bregman to win the MVP. They can make a case for denying Bregman but not allowing the Astros to win the other two awards would be obvious media bias. If justice was served,. we would sweep all three. A much better argument and one I don't argue with. Bregman was key when our big names were on the IL. Yes, we had some effective help from the minors, but Bregman's consistency offensively and defensively was the one common thread through those days. Of course, it's not just limited to those days, but it really matters during those times when the team's "stars" aren't in the game. If the emphasis is on the word VALUABLE, then Bregman should walk away with it. |
|
|
|
Post by blcoach8 on Sept 24, 2019 16:08:43 GMT -6
Oh, I know I am in the minority on this. I define a MVP as a player who has a huge impact on where his team finishes in the standings and his team preferably wins the division and/or the pennant,. I also realize it isn't Trout's fault that the Angels suck. My point is t hat Trout's performance has had absolutely nothing to do with where the Angels finish in the standings. Bregman has been the most productive player on the division winner who is also favored by many to win the WS. Bregman's numbers have had an impact on the Astros winning the division. The Angels suck with or without Trout. I have never thought stats should be all that is considered when determining the MVP. Bregman stays in the lineup and played superior defense at third base and shortstop while Correa was taking one of his in-season vacations. Trout seems to have as many foot problems as Correa has with his back. Nobody will convince me that Trout should win the MVP over Bregman in spite of Trout's WAR or any other I also know the media will not allow the Astros to win the honors that are coming to them. Verlander or Cole.........probably Verlander.....will win the the Cy Young. Yordan will win Rookie of the Year. No way in hell does the media allow Bregman to win the MVP. They can make a case for denying Bregman but not allowing the Astros to win the other two awards would be obvious media bias. If justice was served,. we would sweep all three. A much better argument and one I don't argue with. Bregman was key when our big names were on the IL. Yes, we had some effective help from the minors, but Bregman's consistency offensively and defensively was the one common thread through those days. Of course, it's not just limited to those days, but it really matters during those times when the team's "stars" aren't in the game. If the emphasis is on the word VALUABLE, then Bregman should walk away with it. I totally agree and the emphasis should be on the word VALUABLE or the award is a joke. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 16:14:52 GMT -6
I'm not sure the point you're making. Should games played matter or not matter? And again, nobody is saying those other aspects don't matter, but the individual's performance should be the primary factor when voting for an individual's award. Number of games played should definitely be a factor.........Trout never plays a full season. What the player's performance means to the overall success of his team should also be considered. Bregman wins in that area, too. I wonder if you keep missing my point because it contradicts yours. No, first you said games matter but then you brought up Yordan which seemed to contradict your argument. |
|
|
|
Post by Saint on Sept 24, 2019 16:15:27 GMT -6
And for the record, I think Bregman is pretty well closing the gap between the two if he keeps finishing strong, but it certainly wouldn't be inappropriate or an upset if Trout won. I think he has closed any gap that was there. Look at his production and what it has meant to the team's success. That is what makes an MVP. I also wonder how many votes Trout will get based solely on his name and the fact that he plays in a large media market. Nobody cares about the Angels. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 16:33:46 GMT -6
Unfortunately, I don't expect Bregman to win it. It's undeniable that Mike Trout is an outstanding player. Also, it will be next to impossible to get around the sympathy aspect of the sudden death of their teammate. That will redound to Trout's favor, although no one will say it out loud.
|
|
